| Paks | #341558 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 09:53 | |
YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
The issue with patterns was discussed at some length. (Ask Toragan; it involved a six-hour Teamspeak meeting. Kahlil was there for it too IIRC.) The problem with making it so that everything you need to craft the item is only 10 points is that it won't cover the "common" objects like Felsteel, so the crafter is still going to have to go out of their way to gather materials. Additionally, it would require an entire second tier of points costs being introduced, which is very much a slippery slope falling back to the time of LOP2 and 'Ze List'. At that point, everyone starts making a case for why their items should be 3 or 5 or 1 point and complete and utter chaos results. Not to mention the amount of confusion and delay that it would cause on raids of "Wait, is that item 2 points or 10 points, i don't remember!" "I dunno, let me check 'Ze List'..." In the end, it was felt that a better compromise would be to send all of this to Charter Discretion and let the individual Charter's method of handling it be spelled out in their Charter Information document so that raiders needing crafting reagents could see which raids would allow greed rolls on them. (Gonna Die allows raiders to keep Marks of the Illidari, for example.) --
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| sigsegv | #341561 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 10:08 | |
Veteran of the Psychic Wars |
quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: HOWEVER, I have just thought of something that sounds pretty reasonable. If a standby is pulled into the raid, AND they checked in on time, I do not think it would be that awful to award them the on-time bonus. Because if they checked in, they were on time. It's not a lot, but it might be enough to encourage more standby's to be present and check in. This is already how it works now. --
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. |
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| brunson | #341576 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 10:32 | |
Member |
A. Bind on Pickup Items. Any item that drops in a 10-man or 25-man instance that is Bind on Pickup (BoP) and is not distributed automatically to the entire raid by Blizzard\�s loot systems (such as Badges of Justice) are governed by standard LOP 3.1 rules regardless of item quality. This includes, but is not limited to: Tier Tokens, crafting reagents, and gear. If no bids are received, the item will rot, can be disenchanted, or sold to a vendor in order to supply consumables for the charter, but cannot be taken to use. C. Patterns. Any and all patterns that are a raid-only drop are to be offered for points. Any patterns that are non-Bind may be held by the charter until the end of the raid in the interests of saving time and momentum, at which time they are to be offered for points. Any pattern not taken for points goes to Charter Discretion, including Bind-on-Pickup Patterns. This is to encourage crafters to take patterns that will benefit other raid members more than themselves. According to A, BOP patterns not bid on should rot, according to C, BOP patterns that are not bid on are charter discretion. Just was wondering which takes precedent. |
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| sigsegv | #341577 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 10:34 | |
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Veteran of the Psychic Wars |
quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: This is NOT a simple problem to solve. But I think it's one that needs addressed. There's no way, I'd suggest stifling a charter's progress. But on the other hand the 'casual' or non-core raiders need some protection and love in this too. Aye, but as we have seen the charter banks have been quite generous. In the end, it is not something we want to legislate with the points system as that would require mandatory banking and some sort of DCO type system. Now we DO have a "voluntary" LO bank where charters can choose to donate stuff, and that could be used to provide the mats to the raider in your example. Definitely if I was in that situation I would post to the forums to let the community know the situation and I can guarantee there would be folks/charters who would help out. I know that doesn't solve the problem in the general case via a rule, but as you mentioned, it is not simple to do or we might have stumbled on the solution by now. --
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. |
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| sigsegv | #341578 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 10:35 | |
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Veteran of the Psychic Wars |
quote: Originally posted by brunson: According to A, BOP patterns not bid on should rot, according to C, BOP patterns that are not bid on are charter discretion. Just was wondering which takes precedent. C. --
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. |
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| Paks | #341580 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 10:38 | |
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YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
C takes precedence, as it's the specific ruling for patterns, rather than a general ruling for BoP items. A little background; the reason this was done was specifically because a couple of people pointed out situations like a Rogue leatherworker being the only LW present when a really sweet BoP pattern for Mail BoE bracers drops. The rogue has zero incentive to spend points on a mail item because they'll never be able to use it. The three hunters and two Enhance shaman in the raid are thus effectively unable to access that loot if we let the pattern rot. By allowing a Charter leeway to handle a BoP pattern, the charter lead can then just call for greed rolls or ask for crafters who can learn the pattern to take the item, thereby giving 5 different raiders access to the pattern without costing a single point for the rogue. --
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| Dulin | #341581 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 10:40 | |
26 Hunters = Dead Onyxia |
quote: Originally posted by brunson: A. Bind on Pickup Items. Any item that drops in a 10-man or 25-man instance that is Bind on Pickup (BoP) and is not distributed automatically to the entire raid by Blizzard\�s loot systems (such as Badges of Justice) are governed by standard LOP 3.1 rules regardless of item quality. This includes, but is not limited to: Tier Tokens, crafting reagents, and gear. If no bids are received, the item will rot, can be disenchanted, or sold to a vendor in order to supply consumables for the charter, but cannot be taken to use. C. Patterns. Any and all patterns that are a raid-only drop are to be offered for points. Any patterns that are non-Bind may be held by the charter until the end of the raid in the interests of saving time and momentum, at which time they are to be offered for points. Any pattern not taken for points goes to Charter Discretion, including Bind-on-Pickup Patterns. This is to encourage crafters to take patterns that will benefit other raid members more than themselves. According to A, BOP patterns not bid on should rot, according to C, BOP patterns that are not bid on are charter discretion. Just was wondering which takes precedent. C, as it clearly includes a provision for 'BOP patterns that are not bid on'. Consider it a clarification of A with regard to patterns. :) --
 “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.” -Thomas Jefferson |
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| sigsegv | #341591 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 10:55 | |
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Veteran of the Psychic Wars |
Also, just a few notes off the top of my head on the logic for some of these changes. The system works very well, the changes are meant to be tweaks based on feedback and problems we found in BC. Now, Blizz will probably throw lots of monkey wrenches in for LK, but CLFV. Anyhow... 1) Charter discretion and "raid product" (stuff like gems, hods, marks, etc) - With hoovering, raiders not knowing they are stepping over social lines, raid leaders not knowing where to draw social lines, the inability of some folks to communicate effectively, differences between charters, the need to designate the same items for progression that are also used for crafting/upgrades, and the acknowledgment that this stuff is "worth less" per drop than equivalent gear, it became clear that the best thing to do was remove them from points (those that were still going for points) and simply require that charters clearly state up front what they do with each item in this class of loot and hold them to it. 2) Lower quality items (green/blue) that are highly desirable, BOP, and drop only in a raid instance. With LOP 3.0 only purples+ were considered worthy of bothering with points, but Blizz put in some <purple recipes that enchanters would have gladly shrouded on (and in fact did, there were mistaken entries on these). --
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. |
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| Zaddy | #341683 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 12:44 | |
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Heal Sauce and Assplosions |
quote: Originally posted by sigsegv: quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: This is NOT a simple problem to solve. But I think it's one that needs addressed. There's no way, I'd suggest stifling a charter's progress. But on the other hand the 'casual' or non-core raiders need some protection and love in this too. Aye, but as we have seen the charter banks have been quite generous. In the end, it is not something we want to legislate with the points system as that would require mandatory banking and some sort of DCO type system. Now we DO have a "voluntary" LO bank where charters can choose to donate stuff, and that could be used to provide the mats to the raider in your example. Definitely if I was in that situation I would post to the forums to let the community know the situation and I can guarantee there would be folks/charters who would help out. I know that doesn't solve the problem in the general case via a rule, but as you mentioned, it is not simple to do or we might have stumbled on the solution by now. I am a pessimist. I know this. If charters are in fact relatively free with those raid only components of a craftable, then there is nothing to worry about. I like the idea of the central LO bank for things like this too. Many of us want everyone to progress. That's what makes LO special and me to want to continue to contribute towards it. I just want to help us look out for the little guy to some extent. That may or may not be me (usually it isn't. I've been fortunate.) --
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| sigsegv | #341713 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 13:11 | |
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Veteran of the Psychic Wars |
Pessimism is good... no matter what happens you are either correct or pleasantly surprised. --
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. |
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| Amirite | #341717 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 13:12 | |
السلام عليكم |
quote: Originally posted by Tribal: Okay, all [crafters] roll for greed." and there are half a dozen or more rolls :P If it's something they REALLY want or need, they'll still roll standard. I think you've seen more people just saying "whatever" lately because most of the patterns aren't going to be particularly useful come the xpac. --
  "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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| Jerilynn | #341727 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 13:18 | |
Spaceballs: The Lead |
quote: Originally posted by Amirite: I think you've seen more people just saying "whatever" lately because most of the patterns aren't going to be particularly useful come the xpac. This. If I really wanted something, I'd standard/shroud for it. If it goes to greed, I'll roll for it just so I can have it for completeness sake. I've been that way for a few months now at least. --
  Photography: My Anti-WoW: http://www.jennyzandstra.com Jerilynn - Healer Supreme Dhaliah - Wannabe Tank and Tinkerer Nhaliah - Dhaliah's Sister, Death Knight |
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| Sorronn | #341790 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 13:54 | |
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Charter Lead: AP/TBD |
Well, at this point most BC stuff isn't worth worrying about. But if Pattern: Embrace of the Phoenix dropped in Sunwell, you can be sure I'd shroud that puppy. :)
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"Still round the corner there may wait a new road or secret gate; And though I have oft passed them by, a day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun." - JRR Tolkien |
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| Quinnaria | #341798 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 13:59 | |
Hugz & Cookiez! |
*DROOL* Ya know, I have a few of T6 things, many T5... but I'll be damned if I'm still not wearing my T5 BP *sigh* I'll roll-shambo you for it, Sor! --
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| Zaddy | #341810 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 14:09 | |
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Heal Sauce and Assplosions |
quote: Originally posted by sigsegv: Pessimism is good... no matter what happens you are either correct or pleasantly surprised. Heh, in this case, I'd much rather not be correct. Wow, that statement feels odd. I like to be right all the time! --
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