| Paks | #341453 Monday November 10, 2008 at 23:23 | |
YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
Introducing LOP version 3.1! There's some rather significant changes from the current system, but the new system is really a modification of the old, and it will feel very familiar we hope. Rather than the old Mantra of Purple = LOP, it is now LOP = BoP. Additionally, all the raid patterns, regardless of BoP or BoE, are under LOP as well. If you have any questions, feel free to fire away in here. http://leftoversraiding.org/index.php/topic/34391/ EDIT: One other thing, this is not going into effect until Lich King raids begin. --
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| Paks edited this message on Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 01:57 | ||
| Ook | #341479 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 05:03 | |
Leftovers official sock inseminator! |
For my panty raids... is the lewt BOP or BOE?
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********************** Merry Ookmas! (Ookmas is a holiday similar to Christmas but with far more debauchery and no guilt! It runs from Christmas until the end of Wintereenmas! Bashing Ook during this time it has been found to bring great prosperity and forgoes any need for New Year resolutions) **********************  |
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| Viggen | #341480 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 05:07 | |
What's a Nerubian? |
Do all BC raids (Kara-Sunwell) organized through the LO calendar become non-LOP beginning with the LK release - i.e., like "old world" fun & achievement raids are today?
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| Kahlil | #341494 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 06:42 | |
Old Man |
quote: Originally posted by Ook: For my panty raids... is the lewt BOP or BOE? BoE, clearly. <.< --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| Kahlil | #341495 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 06:43 | |
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Old Man |
quote: Originally posted by Viggen: Do all BC raids (Kara-Sunwell) organized through the LO calendar become non-LOP beginning with the LK release - i.e., like "old world" fun & achievement raids are today? Yes. As soon as Wrath is released, all BC instances become "Old World" and are handled the same way we currently treat Ony/MC/Etc. No official points pool, anyone can advertise for them and recruit in channel, but you need to have a charter in order to use the calendar. --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| Mendomain | #341496 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 06:47 | |
LO goofball |
so it still costs 10 points to save and 10 to roll standard... that just doesnt seem right to me. Its a save roll its a "eh..its a sidegrade or a offspec item that i kinda want" shouldnt cost as much as a standard roll. but thats just me --
people know me...people love me...people hate me... its all a shade of grey |
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| Shisatsu | #341498 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 06:56 | |
アブセント シルエット |
The save roll was the leads' solution to several people rolling standard and then being the generous LO'ers they are and fighting over who would pass. ;P It's meant to be a time saver rather than a seperate tier of points options. --
いいわ、ひとりを消すより 3人を消す方がずっと楽しいわ。 -ラクシーヌ |
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| Tribal | #341499 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 06:59 | |
Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
quote: Originally posted by Arcadius: so it still costs 10 points to save and 10 to roll standard... that just doesnt seem right to me. Its a save roll its a "eh..its a sidegrade or a offspec item that i kinda want" shouldnt cost as much as a standard roll. but thats just me The problem with adjusting the save cost down is you'll suddenly have people rolling save for an item instead of standard since no one really wants to give up the full 10pts :) I agree that it *should* be less (if any) points, but it's just not possible. :/ It's like the "greed roll" on BOP patterns currently. Not a whole lot of people spend points on patterns when they *know* the patterns are going to be pointless if no one rolls. It's funny when you see the pattern drop and the RL says, "Whisper me s/s/s" and then says, "So no one wants it? Okay, all [crafters] roll for greed." and there are half a dozen or more rolls :P --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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| Zaddy | #341506 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 07:33 | |
Heal Sauce and Assplosions |
Hrm, there's nothing that I saw with respect to standby's in the points. I know that this is something that's up for debate a lot and I'm not asking for all standbys to get points just for being standbys. HOWEVER, I have just thought of something that sounds pretty reasonable. If a standby is pulled into the raid, AND they checked in on time, I do not think it would be that awful to award them the on-time bonus. Because if they checked in, they were on time. It's not a lot, but it might be enough to encourage more standby's to be present and check in. I also don't recall if the software supports this at the moment. I'm thinking it might not. I also did not see anything regarding different handling of gems, that had been discussed previously. These, to me, don't feel like regular gear. They are part of existing gear. Craftables may cost more points than non-craftable items, if they require things like nether vortexes and HoD's. Again, this feels wrong. It's also not a guarantee. I still think that there should be an allowance made for someone winning a pattern to be able to make one. Under the current system, especially for BOP items from patterns, there's a huge possibility of getting a pattern and spending points on it, without being able to benefit from it. This is probably my biggest complaint about the current system. --
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| Zaddy edited this message on Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 07:43 | ||
| Eilarae | #341509 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 07:39 | |
-Fallen Faithful Charter Lead- |
I personally like the save rolls being 10 points. If it wasn't such a hit people would save on everything without penalty. BUT most people use to roll save on off spec gear, with off specs being more viable with the duel-spec being introduced into the game, If you are still rolling save on off-spec items, 10 points will be worth it for pieces, say a hybrid would use as off-spec, but would still like the opportunity to give main-spec people to roll on as a standard. At the same time, I am on both sides of the log, because it does suck rollin on offspec and/or fun gear and spending 10 points, but alas, it does give people that can really use the items more of a shot because I am so held back at spending 10 points on something, "I don't really need" --
*Finger Lickin Crit Chicken* .*. (\,,,,/) .*. .('''\(OvO)/''') .' ' '( VVV)' ' ' ··BOOMCHICKEN of DOOM! ..../ | | \...... Eilarae - 80 Chickenkin Kaydinn - 80 Tankadin Saranity - 70 Priestest |
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| Kahlil | #341511 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 07:42 | |
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Old Man |
quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: Hrm, there's nothing that I saw with respect to standby's in the points. I know that this is something that's up for debate a lot and I'm not asking for all standbys to get points just for being standbys. HOWEVER, I have just thought of something that sounds pretty reasonable. If a standby is pulled into the raid, AND they checked in on time, I do not think it would be that awful to award them the on-time bonus. Because if they checked in, they were. It's not a lot, but it might be enough to encourage more standby's to be present and check in. I also don't recall if the software supports this at the moment. I'm thinking it might not. This had been talked about, but no one had a strong enough modum for change, and given some time restrictions the choice was to leave it alone. :) quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: I also did not see anything regarding different handling of gems, that had been discussed previously. These, to me, don't feel like regular gear. Craftables may cost more points than non-craftable items, if they require things like nether vortexes and HoD's. Again, this feels wrong. It's also not a guarantee. I still think that there should be an allowance made for someone winning a pattern to be able to make one. Under the current system, especially for BOP items from patterns, there's a huge possibility of getting a pattern and spending points on it, without being able to benefit from it. This is probably my biggest complaint about the current system. quote: Originally posted by Paks: E. Non-Bind Raiding Items Any item that is not covered in another section, and is available solely through raid instances or purchasable via raid badges, that may drop during a raid will go straight to the discretion of the Charter for distributing and/or banking. In Burning Crusade terms, this would include Nether Vortices, Sunmotes, Hearts of Darkness, and Marks of the Illidari, among others. Is the requisite section; in short the items lists here (And Gems as well) go to 'charter discretion' rather than for points, to be distributed as best suited the needs of the charter. How each charter handles these items will be monitored and ensured to be public knowledge (via the charter description that shows up when you sign up, among other things). That being said, there WILL be differences between charters, so if it's something you feel strongly about sign up for the charters that do things the way you'd like; or discuss with some charters the option of them hanging handling methods if you prefer. I know at least one charter will be banking these items and distributing them to anyone who gets a pattern/item that has gem slots. --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| Zaddy | #341513 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 07:57 | |
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Heal Sauce and Assplosions |
quote: Originally posted by Kahlil: quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: Hrm, there's nothing that I saw with respect to standby's in the points. I know that this is something that's up for debate a lot and I'm not asking for all standbys to get points just for being standbys. HOWEVER, I have just thought of something that sounds pretty reasonable. If a standby is pulled into the raid, AND they checked in on time, I do not think it would be that awful to award them the on-time bonus. Because if they checked in, they were. It's not a lot, but it might be enough to encourage more standby's to be present and check in. I also don't recall if the software supports this at the moment. I'm thinking it might not. This had been talked about, but no one had a strong enough modum for change, and given some time restrictions the choice was to leave it alone. :) Thank you for this response. At least it was considered. quote: Originally posted by Kahlil: quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: I also did not see anything regarding different handling of gems, that had been discussed previously. These, to me, don't feel like regular gear. Craftables may cost more points than non-craftable items, if they require things like nether vortexes and HoD's. Again, this feels wrong. It's also not a guarantee. I still think that there should be an allowance made for someone winning a pattern to be able to make one. Under the current system, especially for BOP items from patterns, there's a huge possibility of getting a pattern and spending points on it, without being able to benefit from it. This is probably my biggest complaint about the current system. quote: Originally posted by Paks: E. Non-Bind Raiding Items Any item that is not covered in another section, and is available solely through raid instances or purchasable via raid badges, that may drop during a raid will go straight to the discretion of the Charter for distributing and/or banking. In Burning Crusade terms, this would include Nether Vortices, Sunmotes, Hearts of Darkness, and Marks of the Illidari, among others. Is the requisite section; in short the items lists here (And Gems as well) go to 'charter discretion' rather than for points, to be distributed as best suited the needs of the charter. How each charter handles these items will be monitored and ensured to be public knowledge (via the charter description that shows up when you sign up, among other things). That being said, there WILL be differences between charters, so if it's something you feel strongly about sign up for the charters that do things the way you'd like; or discuss with some charters the option of them hanging handling methods if you prefer. I know at least one charter will be banking these items and distributing them to anyone who gets a pattern/item that has gem slots. Thank you, for some reason, I didn't associate the gems w/ charter discretion loot. This makes me more comfortable with gems on this. I still feel that the question of a person winning a crafting pattern and being able to make it is unanswered. While I know that no system will be perfect for everyone, there's a gap with winning a pattern. One of the biggest problems is the casual raider that gets in with different charters at different times, but manages to accumulate points and say wins a shroud roll on fancy dancy blacksmithing chest piece. If they aren't a regular with any charter, it's pretty unlikely that charter discretion is going to give the winner vortices or whatnot for their craft. Those are saved for 'regulars' and the winner is SOL, having wasted his points. Hooray if a charter is planning to award the rare mat to the winner, but realistically, I'd be shocked if this was the rule as opposed to the rare exception. This is NOT a simple problem to solve. But I think it's one that needs addressed. There's no way, I'd suggest stifling a charter's progress. But on the other hand the 'casual' or non-core raiders need some protection and love in this too. Again, Thanks much to Kahlil for his answers and the time to make them. --
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| Quinnaria | #341514 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 08:04 | |
Hugz & Cookiez! |
I think you might be surprised, Zaddy. :) Check the Charter Applications. Since this info was up for the CLs a bit earlier, some have already taken it into consideration. Others will probably seek to change theirs as time goes - to ensure that both reward to all and reward to deserving takes place. It is a difficult ball to balance - and each Charter needs to find the balance that is right for them ;) Same token, each raider should be knowledgable of how a Charter handles things - so they can discuss, evaluate and choose the Charter that best suits their needs. And remember - TALK to the CLs :) I bet dollars to donuts if you tell a Charter "Hey, I have this nifty pattern - I'd really like to make it. I've been signing up for your raids, and am willing to work my ass off for some crafting components! Thanks for considering me" Some Charters are going to not only love you talked to them, many will try their best to help you. :D OH - And as to the "Save" costing the same points. Tribal's point is the very difficulty we found - people naturally desire to pay as little as they can for something. Not only that, with the introduction of BoE's into the mainstream Epic section - this will allow someone to say "WOW - that would rock for my Alt. But, I don't want to take it from someone that could use it that is in Raid. Hey! I'll Roll SAVE! Woot! That way, I'm not taking it from anyone that truly wants it - AND I have a shot at taking something home for my Alt. Total Woot!~" --
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| Kahlil | #341515 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 08:08 | |
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Old Man |
My thoughts on 10 points for both Save and Standard (Not-Shroud rolls): Basically, it comes down to this; Shroud has two rolls. Shroud(Half your points) and Not-Shroud(10 points). Typically, given the nature of the raiders we typically have, if an item doesn't go for Shroud it becomes an X way game of 'You take it' where X is the number of people who rolled. Example: 6 people roll Not-Shroud on an item. 1 who wants the item for his main spec, but doesn't have enough points. 2 who wants it for a commonly used offspec. 1 who just want to save it from DE. 1 who want it for a rarely used off spec. 1 who wants it for an alt. The time it takes to work this out is significant, and the chance of getting it 'wrong' is fairly high. (Time taken and confusion resulting grows exponentially with the number of people involved in the discussion.) But in the interests of speeding up that process, and less headaches for those doing points, when we originally looked at Shroud we decided to incorporate 2 different types of Not-Shroud rolls; Standard and Save. They both cost the same, but indicate a different interest in the item present. Example con't: In this situation 3 would roll Standard(main spec but not enough points guy, and the two commonly used offspec guy), 3 would roll save(rarely used offspec and the guy saving it from DE, and the alt guy). Instead of a 6 way conversation for the item, it's a 3 way. Depending on raid leads and people involved, my estimate takes it from a minute long conversation to a 10 second one and about 1/2 as likely for it to go to the 'wrong' guy; the time spent in conversation grows stupid fast as you add people. This is just one example of the implementation of the rule. They're not different levels of loot priority; they just indicate different levels of interest in the item to speed up the loot distribution process as well as ensuring the loot gets to the right guy. With 6 people interested... there's a very large chance of confusion and it going to. That's the theory; in practice I've seen it even more effective. Because the level of interest is already incorporated you can often just say 'cool, 3 people rolled standard, roll off now' and no discussion is necessary; if everyone was rolling the same Not-Shroud roll there would be 6 there, 3 would roll, one may roll anyways, 2 would probably pass... it's just more confusing. I want the items to go to the right folks, easily, and in my experience to two different Not-Shroud rolls make that easier and more consistent with less stress all around. --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| Kraylessa | #341534 Tuesday November 11, 2008 at 08:52 | |
Penance Spammer |
Kahlil, your explanation of Standard and Save is perfect. That's exactly how I feel about it. I think it's a great system and wouldn't change a thing! Making Saves cheaper would just lead to more of the "wrong" people getting the item, because people would be motivated to try to save points and it would probably lead to more "no you take it" sorts of conversations that waste time.
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