| Paks | #321337 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 12:37 | |
YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
Those are going to be medium-hard instances, and are a bit ahead of where you generally will be able to raid at successfully if you're looking at... well, 25 yous. You won't be a liability on farm or light-progression content. Keep in mind though. You're a mage, and you're running in 2 pieces of Spellfire. Most gear checks are going to tell you flat-out that you're all set for Deep Tier 5 or early Tier 6 if you're wearing 3/3 Spellfire and 2/2 Spellstrike, and you are most emphatically NOT ready if only because of health. Again, gear-check sites are oriented towards hardcore raiding organizations that push through Tier 6 content when their raiders are still looking for ways to drop a few pieces of Tier 4 gear. It's a fundamentally different mindset from the way most raiders in Leftovers operate. WoW Heroes is okay as long as you restrict yourself to the green - it's telling me my mage, who is 4/5 Hyjal and 5/9 BT with Wanderlust, should be finding Hyjal and BT to be "easy" raids, which i can assure you they are not. --
Charter Lead - Maelstrom (Tanks)  |
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| Dulin | #321340 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 12:42 | |
26 Hunters = Dead Onyxia |
Obviously, your mage suffers from PEBKAC. And now I flee. --
 “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.” -Thomas Jefferson |
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| Alisia | #321342 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 12:57 | |
Ready for Winter |
Yeah, I still heavily weigh in on the "take the sites with a grain of salt." The one I still don't get is how some of the decisions are made. Like the fact that 0/10 points are given for +30 heal to gloves, but 2/10 points would be given for 10 sta to gloves. I know it's based on the level of the enchant, but 5 points of healing, isn't that huge of a difference. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Sorronn | #321345 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 13:08 | |
Charter Lead: AP/TBD |
quote: Originally posted by Dracul: I don't want to come off as .. well contrary but there are several things I feel I should point out. For one, while gear obviously makes a difference, there have been many guilds to clear high end content in t3 or below before the content was nerfed like it is now. Coordination and skill are huge. Second, for some classes t5 is a downgrade. In all reality a shadow priest for one should stick with frozen shadoweave and badge stuff, as there isn't really anything they need in t5 instances. Likewise a rogues t4 will actually end up outdpsing their t5 unless they have some great +hit weapons since t5 is severely lacking it. What signing up for the proper level does do, and does it well, is teach you how to raid. Each raid is a building block to the next, and it gets harder. Hell a guild that can kill Archimonde is going to laugh their ass off at Illidari Council. The experience of killing each of those bosses is something I wouldn't trade for any amount of loot. Our first Kael kill, our first Vashj kill, first Illidan ... and even our first Gruul/Mag kills ... the experience is worth it and in the end makes you a better player. Understood, Drac. Healers are different from physical DPS. And physical DPS are different from magical DPS. And magical DPS are different from tanks. But regardless, across the board, there is a progression to content. And you also need to consider it from my perspective when I am slotting people. If I've got 15 signups for 7-8 physical DPS slots and one of them is in blues and KZ purples, I'm usually just going to move on. There are another half dozen names to consider there. That guy in blues and KZ purples may be god's gift to DPS but I sure don't want to test that theory against Reliquary. And I can further state that every time we have pulled someone in from standby who was undergeared, they underperformed. Only the standbys who were appropriately geared performed well. That's real world evidence of the progression curve. There may be someone out there who will break the mold but how likely am I to find him versus striking out? And then, as Mae said: quote: Originally posted by Maegrette: quote: Originally posted by Amarta: keep in mind that the Gruul's charter today may very well be the Charter taking Archi down soon- what a fantastic sense of camaraderie and achievement to have been part of making that Charter succeed. This, right here, is the reason I am with my current charters, despite having opportunities to run with groups who have our progression encounters on farm. It might be cool to show up for the first time and have 24 well-geared, experienced people pull you through a one-shot of a difficult boss, or to have the WoW street cred of being able to say that you're raiding Black Temple or Sunwell. But the feeling you get when your group, after weeks of preparation and practice, downs that boss for the first time - well, that is simply priceless. That's another thing that feeds into your comments about first kills and overall experience. It's not just gear but it's also understanding the current raid mentality, the kinds of fights that Blizzard throws at you, etc. And the best indicator of that is, again, gear. If John Doe has an item from Vashj or Kael, it says something beyond just gearing too. One of my personal reasons for making the original post was that I get lots of undergeared names signing up for AP's Black Temple nights. Frequently I go see if it's an alt or I check the slotting app to see if it's an alt. And frequently it's not. That's the player's only character. So there I am trying to slot and I have an undergeared person. Do I slot him and risk the entire night for 24 other people? Or do I move down the line? Usually, unless I have very good reason, I'm just going to move down the line because those other signups have killed Vashj, may have killed Kael, etc. There's nothing personal there at all. I don't dislike John Doe but as a co-lead on a charter I have obligations to the other people attending that raid as well. Having people sign up for content that is appropriate to their own progression level is good for the individual (more chances for success!), good for the charters involved (more chances for success!), and good for the charter leads (less frustration and stress). --
"Still round the corner there may wait a new road or secret gate; And though I have oft passed them by, a day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun." - JRR Tolkien |
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| Amirite | #321346 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 13:08 | |
السلام عليكم |
So my hunter is ready for gruuls/kara, my rogue is ready for bt/hyjal, and my warrior is ready for sunwell. Eh, the heroes site seems fairly ok at predicting, but honestly how hard is that? I don't get the points system either, is it on a 1000 point scale? --
  "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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| Quinnaria | #321355 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 13:26 | |
Hugz & Cookiez! |
SWEET LORD. My healer has NINE ITEMS unenchanted? Sweet grief, did I fall asleep or something? *looks at the armory* No, I've just replaced things quicker than I enchanted them. THAT I gotta fix :D Someone will be looking for an enchanter this evening *laugh* --
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| Amarta | #321358 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 13:30 | |
All stats courtesy of the [Riding Crop] |
quote: Originally posted by Quinnaria: SWEET LORD. My healer has NINE ITEMS unenchanted? Sweet grief, did I fall asleep or something? *looks at the armory* No, I've just replaced things quicker than I enchanted them. THAT I gotta fix :D Someone will be looking for an enchanter this evening *laugh* LOL that is what be.imba did for me ;) I discovered what gear I had neglected to get enchanted and what still had crappy gems in it. I have no short term memory sometimes and clicking on each piece in game was just not making connections happen ;) (my +heal went up quite a bit when I went enchant/gem diving though) --
 The voodoo priest and all his powers were nothing compared to espresso, cappuccino and mocha. |
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| Guthammer | #321369 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 14:00 | |
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Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
Dracul, I don't see you being contrairian here but pointing out that a post in the general forum isn't going to cover all cases for all classes and tiers. And details like Shadow Priests and Rogues should be in a bunch of "You should be at least this tall" posts on the class forums. And the advantage of an alt coming in under geared--as opposed to an unknown--is that you can be reasonable sure--even if they are seeing the fights for the first time--they won't wipe you more than once or twice. And undergeared alts on fights you have seen probably won't cause a wipe, probably won't be able to do alot to prevent one too. --
4 70s and counting |
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| Sojourn | #321400 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 15:44 | |
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Member |
IMHO healers aren't different. Healers are just more rare and individual performance is more difficult to judge for healers(healing meters are at best minorly effective at juding ability) thus people are more forgiving. Healers can over achieve and so can DPS from the expected level (and both can simply fail). The only class/roll that is truely different is tanks (especially MTs). In full crafted / badge gear most DPS and healers can easily be prepared gear wise for T6 content (Naj'entus and Mother would be two big blocks). It is highly unlikely that person would be on the top of the chart, but with skill they could easily be a valid contributor. However, that's just gear! As others have stated Blizzard tends to make content that trains you for future content. The easy fights in MH/BT would be insanely hard for someone who had never raided before, but for someone who has cleared the previous content it's not much more then "don't stand in fire". Saddly finding 25 people who can avoid standing in fire while doing their job can be problematic. |
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| Redfang | #321419 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 17:02 | |
aka Elkheart, aka Challice |
quote: Originally posted by Maegrette: quote: Originally posted by Amarta: keep in mind that the Gruul's charter today may very well be the Charter taking Archi down soon- what a fantastic sense of camaraderie and achievement to have been part of making that Charter succeed. This, right here, is the reason I am with my current charters, despite having opportunities to run with groups who have our progression encounters on farm. It might be cool to show up for the first time and have 24 well-geared, experienced people pull you through a one-shot of a difficult boss, or to have the WoW street cred of being able to say that you're raiding Black Temple or Sunwell. But the feeling you get when your group, after weeks of preparation and practice, downs that boss for the first time - well, that is simply priceless. <3 I feel much the same way. Just seeing content or getting loot really does not compare to the first time my own charter dropped Magtheridon. That was one of my favorite WoW moments of all time. --
You are sitting there, breathing in your breath You are seldom breathing life, but mostly death  The following have reached Exalted status with "The Red Fang": Riz of the Red Fang |
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| Toragan | #321422 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 17:11 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by Sojourn: Healers can over achieve and so can DPS from the expected level (and both can simply fail). The only class/roll that is truely different is tanks (especially MTs). Just curious but what exactly do you mean by this? Not offended/upset or anything...just genuinely curious. --
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| dagris | #321425 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 17:16 | |
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Member |
quote: Originally posted by Toragan: quote: Originally posted by Sojourn: Healers can over achieve and so can DPS from the expected level (and both can simply fail). The only class/roll that is truely different is tanks (especially MTs). Just curious but what exactly do you mean by this? Not offended/upset or anything...just genuinely curious. I think they mean thay healers and dps can exceed the expectations one might have for their performance based upon their gear...ie, player skill can play a more significant factor for those roles then for example a tanking roll where you just flat out need hard mitigation levels. |
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| Toragan | #321435 Tuesday August 19, 2008 at 18:07 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by dagris: I think they mean thay healers and dps can exceed the expectations one might have for their performance based upon their gear...ie, player skill can play a more significant factor for those roles then for example a tanking roll where you just flat out need hard mitigation levels. Ah well I wouldn't deny that gear's a huge part of tanking. If you don't have the mitigation to survive then it's just not going to happen. I wouldn't however by far consider it the only part. Tanking can be a very demanding job. Especially in a raiding environment when you have dps riding your threat and one or two missed cooldowns starts holding your raid back or one or two seconds of inattention can cause a wipe. I've seen it happen so many times. Hell I've been the cause of it at times myself.;) I've also seen tanks with good gear that put out MUCH less threat than tanks with inferior gear. That being said it IS possible for a relatively undergeared tank to go on T5 or T6 runs. Granted there's a limit to that of course but you don't need all your tanks to be able to MT bosses after all. Hell I started into T5 content in a fair amount of blues and never saw T4 content for awhile. I was just the last tank on rotation. --
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| Moonves | #321577 Wednesday August 20, 2008 at 09:39 | |
Queen of the Brood of Moonves |
This is a pretty good thread, but it warrants asking why. Why was it made? If someone signs up and you feel that they're undergeared, a disruption, a bad player, anything like that, then move down the line. It says pretty much everywhere on the LO site that, just because you've signed up for a raid, doesn't mean you'll be slotted. And most charters do hold the aside that certain people, like guild members, will receive preference to non-guild members. It's a competition through and through, and if a person doesn't make the cut, it's their responsibility to work at convincing you why they should be there and not the other Joe DPS or Joe Tank. (It's kind of like an interview with a job but you're only allowed to judge the person by the application (gear) they put forth and nothing else.) Overall, Blizzard gave you a number of people to take with you on a raid, and as charter lead, it's your job to do what's best for them. And I will admit: I signed up for two BT runs this week. Why? I just felt like it. As they say on the Internet, "I did it for the lulz." --
Alliance: Moonves - 70 shadow priest Eugore - 70 combat rogue Horde: Pumpkinleaf - 70 protection warrior Petuniafire - 58 frost death knight |
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| Paks | #321589 Wednesday August 20, 2008 at 10:12 | |
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YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
It was brought up because Tier 6 charters are seeing people in mixes of blues and greens regularly signing up to go to Black Temple and not understanding why they're not getting picked. Being questioned about it 30 minutes prior to raid start is frustrating, to say the least, especially when they don't want just a simple explanation as to why they weren't slotted. Since Sorronn is a simple and direct soul, he figured he'd save a lot of folks the time it takes to individually explain things and simply post a suggestion that, if you're in greens and blues, why don't you go ahead and sign up for a Tier 4 raid because in Tier 6, gear matters no matter what the individual raid leaders would like to be the case. --
Charter Lead - Maelstrom (Tanks) |
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