| Sorronn | #321169 Monday August 18, 2008 at 16:29 | |
Charter Lead: AP/TBD |
Before I go further, I want to emphasize that I am speaking strictly for myself, not for the AP charter, nor for other charters, nor for any overall leads. With that out of the way, I'd like to recommend that people take a good hard look at their own gear and where they are in progression. Why do I ask that you do this? Because I think it is very important for people to sign up characters for raids where they actually have a reasonable chance to succeed and progress. For example, I frequently get hunters applying for raid slots with AP on our Black Temple nights. Many of these hunters are in a mix of blues and PVP honor gear or pure Karazhan gear. People in that level of gear really need to think about signing up for Gruul, Mags, and possibly SSC. This happens with rogues, shaman, DPS warriors, ret palies, etc., and unfortunately, I can't risk the success of a Black Temple raid to satisfy the desire of some folks to see Black Temple without the attendant gear. As a point of comparison, when I entered Karazhan I was doing 550ish DPS. By the time I exited Karazhan, I was in the 750+ DPS range. No change in player, no change in shot rotation, just better gear. I was thrilled when I hit 900 DPS early in SSC and shortly thereafter broke 1000 DPS. Today I'd be very upset with myself if a WWS showed me at 1000 DPS or lower on a Black Temple boss fight, and on some bosses nowadays I break 2000 DPS, like Shade of Akama or Gorefiend. Again, same player, same shot rotation, just better gear. So when you apply for a physical DPS slot with AP, I have to think about fights like Shade of Akama, where we have 60 seconds to win or lose and every bit of DPS counts, like Reliquary of Souls, where in Phase 3 we either out-DPS Essence of Anger or Essence of Anger wipes us, or Gorefiend, where the faster we end that fight, the better for all concerned. As such, I simply cannot slot someone for whom I cannot find a WWS report and whose gear in the armory appears to be well below requirements necessary for those fights. I do try to take new people when possible and I certainly encourage physical DPS to apply if they want, but I have to balance the chances of success of 24 other people against the desire to see Black Temple by any individual. Also as I said at the top, it would probably be a real downer for some folks to see the WWS for a fight and see that their DPS was not much higher than some of the tanks. This is why I think it is important for each of us to evaluate where we are in our own gear progression and to sign up for those raids that make sense for us. My alt, Silivros, is in T4 gear. I won't sign him up for T6 content. The gap is really wide and I know that. I will sign him up for T5 if even I decide to do so because that's where he should go. I would make those choices as much for his own progression as for him being able to meaningfully contribute to some charter's activities. I'm pretty certain even without me saying this that similar situations exist with regards to healers, casters, and tanks as well. I'm pretty sure that some of those people in T6 content can tell you about the differences for each class versus T5 and T4 content. So, in closing, I'd also like to encourage people to visit the class forums here and ask about your gear, about what skill combos work best, etc. The class forums here tend to be underused but there are some super people in every class who lurk in each forum who can give excellent advice on what to seek next in your own progression efforts. I really hate to turn away people but I also have to be realistic. T6 content is not T4 content and I'd really like to encourage each of you to sign up where it makes sense, both for your own satisfaction (in terms of success) and the success of the charter(s) with whom you run. --
"Still round the corner there may wait a new road or secret gate; And though I have oft passed them by, a day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun." - JRR Tolkien |
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| Jerilynn | #321172 Monday August 18, 2008 at 16:46 | |
Spaceballs: The Lead |
Word.
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  Photography: My Anti-WoW: http://www.jennyzandstra.com Jerilynn - Healer Supreme Dhaliah - Wannabe Tank and Tinkerer Nhaliah - Dhaliah's Sister, MIA |
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| Roberth | #321173 Monday August 18, 2008 at 16:54 | |
Holy "Diver!" Priest |
There's very few gear checks to these instances and with the removal of attunements to the T6 areas, sadly alot of people are thinking they can be successful in Black Temple or Mt Hyjal. Certainly you'll see the place but whether or not you're a contributing member of the raid is a good question. Contributing in this case meaning someone who's dps or tanking or healing is equivalent to someone geared for that instance. Typically blues/pvp rewards/heroic epics = T4 content. T4 gear/badge vendor gear = T5 content. T5 gear = T6 content. Typically... Its not all just about the gear as well - skill in your profession and how you handle yourself can make up some of the shortfalls in gear. However if (for instance) you're healing bonus is 1500, you shouldn't be considering signing up for Black Temple. You just aren't there yet. Also, each level of instances provides some framework of experience to handle later levels of instance encounters. Just because you've PvP'd your way to better gear or garnered badge loot doesn't mean you get a pass over T4 or even T5 content. There's still upgrades available in those instances that beat out PvP or badge gear, not to mention seeing a wider variety of encounters. That all said, its not out of the realm of possibility that an undergeared or underskilled player can see content that's beyond them. There are groups that take such players thru ZA for their bear mount for a reason - an overgeared group can help balance out a few undergeared. Too...there are classes that can survive well in higher content that others would not do well in. Well written and I hope this plea isn't an indication that there's some troubles with one (or several) of our charters. Nor should it be read as elitist - this is more pragmatist (sp?) inasmuch that one wouldn't go into Outlands at level 50 and expect to solo successfully. Likewise a freshly minted 70 shouldn't sign up for Black Temple and expect to be slotted. --
Its time to put down the pipe and pick up the PWN!  |
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| Sorronn | #321176 Monday August 18, 2008 at 17:14 | |
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Charter Lead: AP/TBD |
That's exactly it, Roberth, just a piece of pragmatic advice. I'd love to take as many as I could but as I said, that has to be balanced against the needs of 24 other people.
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"Still round the corner there may wait a new road or secret gate; And though I have oft passed them by, a day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun." - JRR Tolkien |
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| Sowien | #321178 Monday August 18, 2008 at 17:27 | |
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Member |
quote: Originally posted by Sorronn: I'm pretty certain even without me saying this that similar situations exist with regards to healers, casters, and tanks as well. I'm pretty sure that some of those people in T6 content can tell you about the differences for each class versus T5 and T4 content. So, in closing, I'd also like to encourage people to visit the class forums here and ask about your gear, about what skill combos work best, etc. The class forums here tend to be underused but there are some super people in every class who lurk in each forum who can give excellent advice on what to seek next in your own progression efforts. *nods in agreement so emphatically my neck breaks. |
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| Toragan | #321183 Monday August 18, 2008 at 17:52 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
Well for tanks it's painfully obvious. If your not geared for what your trying to tank then it doesn't matter how skilled you are. You just won't be able to handle it.
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| Tribal | #321184 Monday August 18, 2008 at 18:00 | |
Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
Hear here! I'm glad someone else said it. There's been a lot of "Charter Shopping" lately and, while people are being friendly, some are emphatically encouraging new members to sign up for t6 content without checking armoury. It could be the case that people aren't "thinking" when signing up for raids because of the strong encouragement to sign up to as many raids as you can as often as you can. Sadly, being one of the best charters around (HIAP!), it wouldn't be completely off-base to believe someone might think, "Aaww... they can drag me through!" Another thing I see happening a lot in /lo is a conversation that goes much like this; Healer: Can I sign up for BT? Helper: What's your healing at? Healer: 50000+ Helper: Sure! You're PERFECT for BT! Healer: Great! I'll start signing up! -- It's in my humble option that each tier prepares you for the next. It's more than just about skipping gear... it's about skipping experience. As a few of the other healers have commiserated; the jump from KZ/Gruuls to SSC/TK was a slap in the face/eye opener with regard to our abilities as a player. People *need* the experience that t5 gives before hitting t6, etc. Anyway, that's my two-pence. Great post, Sorr :) *hugs* Staci~ --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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| Sowien | #321189 Monday August 18, 2008 at 18:26 | |
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Member |
quote: Originally posted by Tribal: Sadly, being one of the best charters around (HIAP!), it wouldn't be completely off-base to believe someone might think, "Aaww... they can drag me through!" ... It's in my humble option that each tier prepares you for the next. It's more than just about skipping gear... it's about skipping experience. As a few of the other healers have commiserated; the jump from KZ/Gruuls to SSC/TK was a slap in the face/eye opener with regard to our abilities as a player. People *need* the experience that t5 gives before hitting t6, etc. Staci~ YES. I dun really care what your class is, you're one link in 25 that MUST pull a certain amount of weight or the chain snaps and all 25 links fail... fail all night, over and over. I know it sounds cruel but it's true. All 24 other links are depending on you not to give out as they in turn are trying to do the same. It's just basic respect to come prepared and do your job well. |
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| Sorronn | #321198 Monday August 18, 2008 at 20:05 | |
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Charter Lead: AP/TBD |
quote: Originally posted by Sowien: YES. I dun really care what your class is, you're one link in 25 that MUST pull a certain amount of weight or the chain snaps and all 25 links fail... fail all night, over and over. I know it sounds cruel but it's true. All 24 other links are depending on you not to give out as they in turn are trying to do the same. It's just basic respect to come prepared and do your job well. And not just that, Sowien, there's also the side of the individual involved. There's great satisfaction in helping a charter down a boss and where your own contribution was helpful. It's more frustrating when you look at the data and think "Gee, I sucked." That happens even when people win. But winning and excelling make people feel good about their role and participation in the progression. I'd far rather see people succeed against Gruul or Mags than fail against Gorefiend or Reliquary. Success against Gruul and Mags will eventually translate into success against Gorefiend and Reliquary. But failure against Gorefiend and Reliquary don't necessarily turn into success against lower tier bosses. --
"Still round the corner there may wait a new road or secret gate; And though I have oft passed them by, a day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun." - JRR Tolkien |
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| Kylearan | #321200 Monday August 18, 2008 at 20:25 | |
O.o |
I always thought this was a nifty site too for gauging your gear, and what instances are appropriate with said gear. http://be.imba.hu/?zone=US&realm=Silver+Hand&character=Zemmy (Heh... it's cached me in shadow gear) |
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| Tribal | #321211 Monday August 18, 2008 at 21:24 | |
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Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
quote: Originally posted by Kylearan: I always thought this was a nifty site too for gauging your gear, and what instances are appropriate with said gear. http://be.imba.hu/?zone=US&realm=Silver+Hand&character=Zemmy (Heh... it's cached me in shadow gear) Yeah... I don't like this site. It's very unreliable. It has *me* cached back when I was in pvp blues *rolls eyes* March? Srsly. --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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| Sorronn | #321213 Monday August 18, 2008 at 21:31 | |
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Charter Lead: AP/TBD |
Imba does periodic updates of all players in the WOW Armory. But if you create an account you can update your gear to whatever shows in the armory right then. Accounts are free.
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"Still round the corner there may wait a new road or secret gate; And though I have oft passed them by, a day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun." - JRR Tolkien |
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| Tribal | #321216 Monday August 18, 2008 at 21:35 | |
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Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
I forced it to reload me and shows me, in my current gear, able start sunwell. I dunno. Maybe I'm underestimating my gear but I still think this is inaccurate and doesn't draw a very good picture for the inexperienced player. *shrugs* YMMV :D PS: If anyone wants to drag me through Sunwell, please, send me a PM :P *cough* --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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| Cloudy_Stormshaper | #321219 Monday August 18, 2008 at 21:42 | |
Move to the Cloudy place |
Something I have learned with Blizzard is that content from the beginning prepares you for the end content. For example you have a fight that teaches you one mechanic and the in future dungeons there is a similar (or even sometimes the same) mechanic being used. These fights seem to be easy for people as they reach end game because they have encountered these situations and you know how to handle it. That being said experiencing a fight once does not make you an expert. I have done most fights on Cloudy several times from Gruul's lair to Black Temple and I still make mistakes in those and places in between, but because I know the fights as well as I do I am able to react to those mistakes faster and with less consequences to my 24 friends. And there is times when I make a mistake we all die, and then you have 24 people who are not happy with you that instant. Gear, your quality of playing, your ability to play that day, you always have to look at yourself that day. --
~Friendly, lovable, and dishwasher safe |
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| Kavanagh | #321220 Monday August 18, 2008 at 21:44 | |
Truthiness and the American Way |
be.imba is kind of unreliable. For example: when I was ret specced, it said I needed an additional 24 hit rating to hit my hit cap. Even though my hit rating was at something like 114 or so (and the cap for paladins with precision is 95 hit rating or so). So, take what it says with a grain of salt. --
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion.   |
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