| Kavanagh | #320673 Friday August 15, 2008 at 09:11 | |
Truthiness and the American Way |
quote: Originally posted by Toragan: Threat meters don't make anyone a good dpser they just allow a good dpser to achieve the limit of their potential in relation to a given tank. I disagree. Someone who doesn't understand threat dynamics or how much threat their attacks cause, but *does* pay attention to the threat meter, can become a better player by learning what their limits are. It's the same as any other tool. Used properly, you can improve your game with it. --
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion.   |
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| Alisia | #320677 Friday August 15, 2008 at 09:20 | |
Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Kavanagh: quote: Originally posted by Toragan: Threat meters don't make anyone a good dpser they just allow a good dpser to achieve the limit of their potential in relation to a given tank. I disagree. Someone who doesn't understand threat dynamics or how much threat their attacks cause, but *does* pay attention to the threat meter, can become a better player by learning what their limits are. It's the same as an other tool. Used properly, you can improve your game with it. It is a tool, but the person should still be capable of learning without it. Sort of like math and calculators. You can solve the problem with a calculator and then know how to use the calculator, or you can know how to do the problem and then have the calculator to make things faster. The person is learning how to read the meter. That doesn't necessarily make them understand the mechanics behind the threat. For example, once BC came out TRS started using threat meters because they were finally working consistantly. So, on Gruul, nearly everyone was keeping their threat under 100% of the tank's. At which point it was explained that ranged can go up close to 130% of the tank's threat without pulling as long as they keep their threat in-check with stopping attacking or a drop. Suddenly the dps of some people went dramatically up. So they understood what the meter was saying, but they didn't understand how the mechanic worked. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Guthammer | #320679 Friday August 15, 2008 at 09:28 | |
Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
That is something I need to remember as a tank too. Here is a question... How far away does a ranged have to be to be safe at 129% of MT's threat? I have noticed my girlfriend's mage seems to like to nuzzle up close to mobs (mostly because of the chargers in KZ, I think) but it makes me nervous as a tank for threat and a healer for cleaves. --
4 70s and counting |
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| Alisia | #320682 Friday August 15, 2008 at 09:32 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Guthammer: That is something I need to remember as a tank too. Here is a question... How far away does a ranged have to be to be safe at 129% of MT's threat? I have noticed my girlfriend's mage seems to like to nuzzle up close to mobs (mostly because of the chargers in KZ, I think) but it makes me nervous as a tank for threat and a healer for cleaves. Outside of melee range, for the boss. So, it depends on the hit-box. http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Kencos_Research --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Kahlil | #320683 Friday August 15, 2008 at 09:35 | |
Old Man |
Not sure the exact range Guthammer, but it's actually fairly close. I think the 8 yard range is the cutoff; but that's most supposition rather than proven fact. A lot of strictly 'ranged' abilities kick in at that point (charge, intercept, hunter arrows now, etc) so it makes sense that it would be consistent. Omen knows, or should, too; though I'm almost always in melee range so haven't paid at on of attention. I know it does swap between 130% and 110% as the agro ceiling based on range however. I'm curious now, maybe I should test it sometime soon. Edit: And I've definately been out of range enough not to be able to swing (so out of 'melee range' by one definition) but still at 110% agro before pulling. The 8 yards I'm referring to above is my guesstimate as to how much away from the hit box you have to be before you reach the 130% agro ceiling. --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| Kavanagh | #320686 Friday August 15, 2008 at 09:44 | |
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Truthiness and the American Way |
quote: Originally posted by Alisia: It is a tool, but the person should still be capable of learning without it. Sort of like math and calculators. You can solve the problem with a calculator and then know how to use the calculator, or you can know how to do the problem and then have the calculator to make things faster. The person is learning how to read the meter. That doesn't necessarily make them understand the mechanics behind the threat. For example, once BC came out TRS started using threat meters because they were finally working consistantly. So, on Gruul, nearly everyone was keeping their threat under 100% of the tank's. At which point it was explained that ranged can go up close to 130% of the tank's threat without pulling as long as they keep their threat in-check with stopping attacking or a drop. Suddenly the dps of some people went dramatically up. So they understood what the meter was saying, but they didn't understand how the mechanic worked. Agreed, but once again, some people just aren't that good. But they can become better, or at least maintain an artificial level of competence, by using the tool. And if you have to fill in a few slots with people who can only perform because of that meter? That's just fine with me. It means everyone can have fun. :) --
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion. |
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| Alisia | #320691 Friday August 15, 2008 at 09:53 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Kahlil: Not sure the exact range Guthammer, but it's actually fairly close. I think the 8 yard range is the cutoff; but that's most supposition rather than proven fact. A lot of strictly 'ranged' abilities kick in at that point (charge, intercept, hunter arrows now, etc) so it makes sense that it would be consistent. Omen knows, or should, too; though I'm almost always in melee range so haven't paid at on of attention. I know it does swap between 130% and 110% as the agro ceiling based on range however. I'm curious now, maybe I should test it sometime soon. Edit: And I've definately been out of range enough not to be able to swing (so out of 'melee range' by one definition) but still at 110% agro before pulling. The 8 yards I'm referring to above is my guesstimate as to how much away from the hit box you have to be before you reach the 130% agro ceiling. Hit-box +3 was what I should have said. Though I thought ability to be hit and range you can hit are two different things. Which is why tauren can stand outside of lurker's whirl range and still hit it, and in pvp I can still be hit by someone 5 yards away and I can't hit them. Can I say how sucky that is on some fights? "Yeah guys, stand at max melee range so you get spread out and aren't too close to each other" *spreads out* "Ok Alisia you can back up some from the boss to spread out more" *backs up in line with other people, can't hit the mob* "Nope I can't hit it" --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Toragan | #320769 Friday August 15, 2008 at 16:53 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by Kavanagh: I disagree. Someone who doesn't understand threat dynamics or how much threat their attacks cause, but *does* pay attention to the threat meter, can become a better player by learning what their limits are. It's the same as any other tool. Used properly, you can improve your game with it. Doesn't matter how much you understand your class. Unless your operating with a tank you know extremely well you have no idea what level of threat they are putting out. Even then you would have no idea if they missed an ability or had it resisted. You'd have no idea what level the tank was at period (this would become even more touch and go the longer the fight unless there was frequent agro resets) and without knowing that you can't push your own dps to it's limit. Most good dps I've seen are more than capable of pushing that limit. Even against great tanks. Especially certain classes like fury warriors for example. It would basically amount to a good dpser having to hold back a bit to be on the safe side and with the amount of dps race encounters in the game that's just not beneficial. In my experience bad dpsers don't really have to worry as much about their threat. Unless they are paired with bad tanks.=P --
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| Kavanagh | #320823 Saturday August 16, 2008 at 07:24 | |
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Truthiness and the American Way |
I think we're arguing completely different points, Tora. I'm saying that threat meter *can help* someone become better. I'm not saying any of the things you're saying. And I've agreed with both you and Alisia with everything, while also adding that even if someone doesn't have this in-depth knowledge you guys are talking about, they can still contribute and be better players (after all, who does more good in a fight: the guy who DPSes like crazy and dies in the first 10 seconds, or the guy who under-DPSes but stays alive for the entire fight?). Some people are better then others. Threat meters help players who don't understand the threat mechanics be a lot more effective, and more importantly, less of a hindrance to the rest of the raid. And that's all I really have to say about that. If you guys don't like threat meters, more power to you. --
This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion. |
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| Redfang | #320835 Saturday August 16, 2008 at 09:58 | |
aka Elkheart, aka Challice |
quote: Originally posted by Phalling_Star: quote: Originally posted by Redfang: quote: Originally posted by Phalling_Star: I went through one million gil worth of potions and foods and other necessities for it and ended up losing a level and a half. That was the end of that. ROFL Epic fail! Obviously you never played that game or if you did you didn't get very far into it. This was fairly typical of the learning curve on some of the more advanced stuff. I just got tired of putting all that effort into it. I mean, we're talking about a game where the direction you are standing and on which day you are standing that direction can make or break a crafting attempt. And oh yes, crafting could fail and take your most expensive components with it. If you tried a boss on the wrong in game day then you could be totally screwing yourself too. Trying to take down an earth based boss on earth day was not fun at all. Also when you died you lost 10% of the xp needed for the next level, not 10% of the xp you had. Heck, even fishing wasn't an innocent laid back sport. You had the chance of fishing up really nasty monsters if you weren't fishing in a city. So sure, maybe in terms of WoW it was an "epic fail" but in terms of FFXI it was more an every day thing. Sorry. Spending a million gil on an endeavor and achieving nothing but a lost level and a half is the very definition of epic fail. ;) I don't say this to come down on you. Hell, I give you props for trying it. It's a rag on the game. Yes, I did play FFXI for a few months, I got into crafting quite a bit, and that was the first game where I was able to learn the joys of playing the Auction Houses. So I do have some pleasant memories from it... but the death penalty system was pure ass, no way around it. As one of my friends that I somehow managed to pull into the game so succinctly described it in a text message: "Dude, I made level 9! Then I made level 8." --
You are sitting there, breathing in your breath You are seldom breathing life, but mostly death  The following have reached Exalted status with "The Red Fang": Riz of the Red Fang |
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| Phalling_Star | #320863 Saturday August 16, 2008 at 14:26 | |
Relentless Raider |
Well I survived to be a 63 Black Mage / 31 White Mage. It only got worse as you went. Max XP for experience chaining kills leveled out at around the 300-350ish range and when you needed 60,000 xp to level that sucked. That meant when you died you lost 6,000 xp which equaled about 20+ mobs killed in a good group. There was no soloing either unless you happened to like playing a Beast Master. The only part of it I wish I could keep was the Black Mage ability to port home any member of their part. . . . without needing their permission. Thats right folks, if you had a bad player in your party and you just didn't want to deal with them any more, a black mage could send them on a one way trip home. Best ability ever! I don't think anyone could pay me enough to play that game again. --
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| Toragan | #320865 Saturday August 16, 2008 at 14:46 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
Speaking of death penalties. I'll never forget that time on EQ that I tried to solo part of my bard's epic quest on the plane of fear. You talk about a nasty place to go down. I had to bring in a large crew of people just to get my corpse and gear outa there. At least I *think* it was the plane of fear. God it's been a long time. --
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| Frendan | #320956 Sunday August 17, 2008 at 10:38 | |
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Knight Of The Silver Hand |
Yeah it was the Plane Of Fear...many a corpse left in there waiting for help to get to! The Sleeper fight was an epic adventure when I played EQ. And now that you mention Plane Of Fear, Plane Of Hate was one of the crazier "OMG we been in here 20 hours" places also. |
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