| Xeonio | #318084 Monday August 4, 2008 at 09:04 | |
Charter Lead: Relentless |
Hihi, I'm currently using... http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=2652 ...as my what to look for gear option. I just bought the 75 badge chest piece last night and honestly... it seems so bleh compared to my old t4 chest. 75 badge chest: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33522 (60sta 22def 38dodge 35spelldmg red / blue / yellow socket) T4 chest: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29066 (48sta 30int 23def 23block rating 27spelldmg red / blue / yellow sockets) 100 badge chest: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34945 (78sta 51def 31dodge 39block value red socket) http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34939 (78sta 26def 34spellhit 60spelldmg blue socket) I know 3 sockets is amazing, but the 3 sockets in the 75badge chest just don't seem like they makeup for what I'd gain on either of the 100 badge chests. The 100badge spell dmg chest seems amazing for threat while the other 100badge chest seems amazing for avoidance stats, which would allow me to socket for spell dmg / sta in other places. I bought the 75badge chest and put 3x 15sta gems although I'm considering switching the yellow to (def/sta) and the red to sta/spelldmg gems... is this a bad idea? I know I want stamina and I love Artalis' gear in the huge shield block rating he has, which is where a lot of my threat comes from. I've read the elitist jerks article but I'm still totally lost as to what I'm looking for in upgrades w/o the above list. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silver+Hand&n=Matrix Is my armory (unbuffed). 15207 hp 482 spell dmg 15821 ac 520 def 18.49 dodge 18.11 parry 16.24 block Are my unbuffed tanky stats (so u don't have to worry about lookin' at my armory). I'm working towards t5 gloves / pants / shoulders and will pickup badge pants soon as I get the badges for 'em. So... question on the pants then, the guide above tells me that the 100 badge pants, Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor (78sta 25def 43dodge 37spelldmg red / yellow socket) is better then the 100 badge Unwavering Legguards (73sta 22def 30block rating 59block value red / yellow sockets). What makes the aldor better then the unwavering? It would seem that I could take the Unwavering pants and just do a bit of spell dmg socketing and be good w/that. 100 badge pants: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33515 (73sta 22def 30block rating 59block value red / yellow sockets) http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34946 (78sta 25def 43dodge 37spelldmg red / yellow socket) Thank you any and all who can help me shed some light on my current state of darkness. EDIT: After looking at the 75badge vs. the two 100badge chests I can kind of understand it, since it seems like more of a happy mix vs going staight spelldmg or straight tanky... but when I'm given the option of going straight tanky vs. straight spell dmg I should go with the spell dmg (aldor vs. unwavering). I have to say though that I am definitely leaning towards the Unwavering for the immense shield block stats on it. I'm under the impression that a lot of our threat comes from blocking (holy shield + sanctuary). Xeonio (Matrix), Relentless --
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| Stubbles | #318110 Monday August 4, 2008 at 10:59 | |
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In my opinion, it depends on what you are tanking as to which items are upgrades. I can see times where (nearly) each piece of gear you linked could be an upgrade over the other. For 25-mans I have 2 sets of gear, one for threat (which looks similar in stats to what you have now, low dodge/high block/high spell dmg) and one for bosses. My boss set sacrifices some spell dmg/block rating for a higher true avoidance (dodge/parry). I find that while my threat set is uncrushable, and theoretically can tank bosses with it easily, my boss set helps to reduce spiky damage and I have been told my several healers that I'm less squishy than most prot paladins, and I have tested the 2 sets on boss attempts and the healers have made a point to let me know the difference. Since I have an unlimited mana pool with bosses, I can make up for the loss of spell damage/block value. Granted I haven't walked into Hyjal/BT yet, we're heading into Hyjal for the first time this week, so this may change my opinions, but it has worked well for me so far. Armory has me in my boss set atm. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silver%20Hand&n=Stubbles |
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| Todyn | #318115 Monday August 4, 2008 at 11:14 | |
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In the beginning of your tanking career, much of your threat will be generated through blocking/blessing of sanctuary. As you progress further and further into the higher raids, you will want to shift away from blocking and go for pure avoidance stats, such as dodge and parry. The reason is, as you progress further, bosses start hitting harder and while in Kara, blocking say 300 dmg from a 2000 dmg attack is quite worth it, lets jump up to a T5 boss who hits for 4 to 6k, that 300 dmg blocked suddenly becomes less significant. Myself, I also carry 2 different sets of gear, one for bosses where the emphasis is on dodge/parry, and one for trash, where spelldmg/threat is give more consideration. In my boss tanking set, I think i set at around 450 spelldmg, with about 25% dodge and 18% parry, whereas in trash tanking set, I go up to about 550 spelldmg and drop down to about 20% dodge. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silver+Hand&n=Todyn My advice to you is to get the Boss tanking upgrades first, meaning concentrate on getting pure avoidance at this point. Your spelldmg seems fine, so work on gaining more Effective Health. Stubbles and I are in the same guild, so our tanking philosophies are quite similar, ( we do tend to share a lot of our experiences with each other). Good luck :) |
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| Xeonio | #318164 Monday August 4, 2008 at 13:39 | |
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Charter Lead: Relentless |
Thx for the info... lets say my only job is to tank Hyjal trash though? What should I be looking to gear towards? HP / Spell dmg?
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| Toragan | #318169 Monday August 4, 2008 at 14:27 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by Xeonio: Thx for the info... lets say my only job is to tank Hyjal trash though? What should I be looking to gear towards? HP / Spell dmg? Both frankly. You need the spell damage to hold agro off your aoe and the hp to survive the agro.;) As far as your chest question. I think the list on main tankdian you linked is about exactly how I'd rate chest pieces. The 75 badge reward chest is better than t4 easily. More stam and your trading shield block rating for dodge rating. That's always the way you'll want your mitigation to go. Parry > Dodge > SBR. The only reason I'd advise going against that is if your a new tank and your aiming for active uncrushablity. You tend to get more bang for your buck outa SBR over dodge and at the early gear levels that matters. Your goals as a tank basically go in the order of hitting 490 defense, then hitting active uncrush, then slowly replacing SBR with dodge or parry without sacrificing to much spell damage. Well and of course building up your stam. But that should be a given.;) The 100 badge chest doesn't interest me over the 75 badge one. Spell hit rating isn't even comparable to dodge rating in my book and you lose two gem slots. I have no idea why they itemized it that way. It still baffles me. The warrior one would be acceptable but I prefer the 75 badge pally one for the extra spell damage. As far as legs. The aldor are better than unwavering because you have more armor, dodge over SBR, and extra spell damage. Now I don't mind wearing warrior tanking gear in some slots but you have to be careful not to go to far down that road. Your spell damage is your ability to hold agro and you don't want to fall into the trap I've seen some paladins go into that make themselves a wall that can't hold agro. A poorly itemized pally tank can end up being a dps check can get people killed easily. No matter how well geared you are there will always often be dps capable of riding you. Every bit of SD you have just potentially sets that agro ceiling that much higher. --
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| Toragan edited this message on Monday August 4, 2008 at 14:47 | ||
| Gyrik | #318225 Monday August 4, 2008 at 16:46 | |
"Yub yub, Commander." WL Tank Lead |
Chests: Intro tanking chest (Jadefire/Aldor Revered/wombat) -> Stoic Guardian -> T6 is, in my personal opinion, the way to go for anything precluding situational sets like a SBV set. Both Stoic Guardian and T6 have a mix of spell damage and avoidance (what you're looking for as you move into higher end raiding), and good stam/gem slots. My reason for wearing it over the Stoicism chest, just like Toragan, is that I don't think it's worth sacrificing the spell damage AND the stamina (both 100 badge chests have less stam potential then the 75 badge chest). The "tankadin" chest piece is just silly, and should not be worn unless you're making a shockadin set or something. Pants: 100 badge pants for boss/general purpose, 75 badge pants (Unwavering) for AE/SBV situations. I use Unwaverings for Hyjal trash, although I've been brought around to look at wearing more avoidance pieces there (namely for Abom waves) so that may change the next time I tank Hyjal. Unwaverings have slightly more potential stam, but the change to avoidance/spell damage is worth it. --
 Dazhbog - Armory Gyrik - Armory The birth of the Argent Crusade - credit to Invisusira of Smolderthorn |
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| Toragan | #318237 Monday August 4, 2008 at 17:14 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by Gyrik: 100 badge pants for boss/general purpose, 75 badge pants (Unwavering) for AE/SBV situations. I use Unwaverings for Hyjal trash, although I've been brought around to look at wearing more avoidance pieces there (namely for Abom waves) so that may change the next time I tank Hyjal. Unwaverings have slightly more potential stam, but the change to avoidance/spell damage is worth it. Honestly my take on Hygil is that no matter how much avoidance we have or how we stack it that it won't matter in the long run. The critical moments that I've ever gone down during are almost always when the aboms knock me down and I spike hard because all my avoidance is kaput till I'm able to get back up. In that situation it's just my flat armor/stam and fast heals from my healers that I have to rely on. --
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| Adnar | #318250 Monday August 4, 2008 at 18:21 | |
Let it begin! |
Don't forget right before the author starts listing gear: Disclaimer: This list just a harmless bit of OCD fun that can be a useful reference and point of comparison. If you take all of this literally and as gospel without thinking what is best for you and what the encounter requires then: You're doing it wrong I think the badge one is more MT focused and the T4 is more AoE focused. I never got the T4 and only use the badge chest, but I could see when I could switch them out. It's the same thing for the legs. If you are MTing hard hitting evil baddies then more dodge is going to be your friend. You are just going to have to work more so your threat doesn't suffer. Just put yourself in a group with Wrath of Air, chug your destruction potions, and fire up those wings early and often. I reread your post and have a few more general ideas. Dodge gear = MT gear to me. +15 stam those all the way. This also increases health which allows you to get more value from Ardent Defender. I can't tell you how many times all that extra health and better ardent defender range has kept me alive tanking Aboms in Hyjal. Block gear = AoE gear to me. (I still stam those up, too) Spell dmg could be appropriate in this gear, if you think threat could be an issue. Also, those 100 badge items have a lot more armor. Over the course of a long fight that can save a ton of healing mana. Listen to Tor, he knows why that extra armor is needed. I am in 100% agreement. As an aside, I recently ran into a problem with the gear I was always wearing. Suddenly when I got new bracers I was crushable. GASP. I had to go back into the bag and pull out more block/dodge gear and sacrifice some stamina. Don't DE your gear unless you have something that is a better 100% replacement. You never know when a KZ or SSC item is gonna save you. --
The status is NOT quo. The world is a mess and I just need to rule it. http://silverhandwowgeek.blogspot.com/ |
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| Adnar edited this message on Monday August 4, 2008 at 18:39 | ||
| Paks | #318257 Monday August 4, 2008 at 19:52 | |
YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
Speaking of crushable, you're precisely 0.22% over the Uncrush mark... with a Flask up that grants 10 Defense. Re-enchanting your goggles with the Def/Dodge KoT enchant and going to Inscribed Legplates over Tier 4 will probably fix that problem though; you get lots more Dodge per point of rating than you do Parry, and the legplates, even with the enchant change, would probably have you come out ahead on stam. I would sincerely consider a few SBV items. Rating is useless when you're active uncrush; it's only useful for Passive Uncrush which is a royal bitch to get. Block Value OTOH means that for every hit you block - which means 50% or more with your current stats - you're going to be taking that much less damage. Like armor, in the long run it saves mana for your healers and helps smooth out spikes. I also think you went a bit high on the Spell Hit, but what's done is done and the pieces are good in their own right, above and beyond the spell hit. --
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| Toragan | #318273 Monday August 4, 2008 at 21:51 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by Adnar: As an aside, I recently ran into a problem with the gear I was always wearing. Suddenly when I got new bracers I was crushable. GASP. I had to go back into the bag and pull out more block/dodge gear and sacrifice some stamina. Don't DE your gear unless you have something that is a better 100% replacement. You never know when a KZ or SSC item is gonna save you. Wise advice here. I save my gear for this very reason. You'll often find yourself juggling gear at times to find that balance that fits where you wanta be. --
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| Xeonio | #319095 Thursday August 7, 2008 at 18:32 | |
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Charter Lead: Relentless |
Wanted to say HUGE thanks to all those who have helped me. I got my badge legs today, went with the... Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34946 I put 15sta x2 in them. Now on to new things. Trinkets. Darkmoon Card: Vengeance: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31858 Commendation of Kael'thas: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34473 Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28528 Scarab of Displacement: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30629 Those are the four trinkets I carry around. With the new leggings I have my current avoidance (w/o trinkets) 53.1%. Which still seems VERY low for some reason. Especially since my main objective is to tank Hyjal trash waves (whole reason the character exists). I put the two avoidance trinkets on to get 56.91% avoidance. I realize trinkets / gear are situational but I don't think I totally understand when I should go w/the HP over the avoidance. I can avoid the knockdown via more avoidance so would just wearing those trinkets (watch / scarab) be better? Or should I be wearing the Commendation and the Scarab? My plan is to wear the avoidance trinkets for most waves and any waves that have abominations put on the sta trinkets (Tora was pointing out that avoidance is useless when I get stunned by the aboms). Is that something anyone else has considered or is this a bad idea? --
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| Toragan | #319098 Thursday August 7, 2008 at 18:38 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
I'd go with the card and commendation. I'd do it myself if I had either.=/
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| Xeonio | #319142 Thursday August 7, 2008 at 22:52 | |
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Charter Lead: Relentless |
1. Then the 4% of avoidance isn't worth the 108sta I gain from those two trinkets? 2. You can only be crush'd by something that is 3 levels higher then you right? Which means as long as I'm not tanking bosses I shouldn't worry much about crushability, although higher avoidance is good simply because it helps you tank.(?) --
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| Gyrik | #319244 Friday August 8, 2008 at 11:23 | |
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"Yub yub, Commander." WL Tank Lead |
quote: Originally posted by Toragan: Honestly my take on Hygil is that no matter how much avoidance we have or how we stack it that it won't matter in the long run. The critical moments that I've ever gone down during are almost always when the aboms knock me down and I spike hard because all my avoidance is kaput till I'm able to get back up. In that situation it's just my flat armor/stam and fast heals from my healers that I have to rely on. True, and stam/armor is what saves your ass in the emergencies. However, the knock-down is dodge-able/parry-able, so more avoidance = less knockdowns. quote: Originally posted by Xeonio: Now on to new things. Trinkets. Darkmoon Card: Vengeance: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31858 Commendation of Kael'thas: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34473 Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28528 Scarab of Displacement: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30629 My take on trinkets: Dual Avoidance trinkets: Large possibility of oh-shit emergencies that require you to give the healers some breathing room, and more HP isn't going to solve the problem (e.g. bosses that silence) Dual Stam trinkets: Incoming damage is not avoidable (Magic based fights), or "more stam more stam moer stam" fights. One stam and one avoidance trinket: Bread and butter set-up, useful in all situations. My personal pairing is the Commendation and the Pocket-Watch, switching in the Scarab for situations that require the defense boost (resist gear/alternate gear sets, to stay uncritable) or the Darkmoon card for heavy stam fights. As far as Hyjal trash goes, I'd say definitely go with a stam trinket (Commendation) and a poppable avoidance trinket, for those times where things are getting hairy and you want to lower/get rid of the chance of a knockdown for a couple of seconds to let the healers breathe. --
Dazhbog - Armory Gyrik - Armory The birth of the Argent Crusade - credit to Invisusira of Smolderthorn |
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| Toragan | #319323 Friday August 8, 2008 at 15:45 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by Xeonio: 1. Then the 4% of avoidance isn't worth the 108sta I gain from those two trinkets? Add in talents and your looking at more than 108 stam. Plus you get the nifty abilities both trinkets add in to the mix. quote: Originally posted by Xeonio:2. You can only be crush'd by something that is 3 levels higher then you right? Which means as long as I'm not tanking bosses I shouldn't worry much about crushability, although higher avoidance is good simply because it helps you tank.(?) Only specific bosses crush. Unless there's just trash out there I'm unaware of.*shrug* (always a possibility) But yeah higher avoidance is always good for the reason you stated.;) --
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