| StormMaster | #314017 Monday July 21, 2008 at 12:01 | |
AP Tank Lead - Dwarven Bomb Squad |
Strength is becoming a primary statistic in Wrath for pretty much all of the tanking classes. The STR to BV ratio is being changed to 2:1, making strength also a heavy defensive statistic. It'll increase devastate, shield slam, shield bash, shockwave, thunderclap (and I believe revenge is being reworked as well to include AP scaling, though don't quote me on that) AP scaling is also being introduced to many paladin abilities (HoR, SotR (though BV from STR), SoR/JoR/SoV/JoV) so Blizzard is definetly moving forward with strength as both a threat and defensive stance that works for multiple classes, reducing the number of different types of tank gear necessary to itemize for the various tank classes. --
Artalis / Khandron - 140 levels of tanking goodness! "All your aggro are belong to US!" |
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| Redfang | #316884 Wednesday July 30, 2008 at 17:38 | |
aka Elkheart, aka Challice |
quote: Originally posted by Gen: quote: Originally posted by Paks: I believe that Tclap is going to be scaling with AP now as well, which may very well help a LOT against a 3-4 mob pull. Unless there is a change to threat generation, damage usually has little to do with it. It'll help sure, but not greatly. Still, I'm not terribly worried about our AoE tanking ability. We do fairly well with multi mobs and with some CC there usually isn't too much to worry about. And with Shamans and Paladins seemingly getting a little something in that area(though I need to reread Hex) it comes over to a buff to our tanking. To clarify: I'm talking about tanking giant packs of non-elite mobs. The mana wyrms in MgT. The flowers in Bot. The skellies in Shadow Lab. Or even the elite skellies in Auchenai (ran that the other night without a priest, thank god we had someone who could double as an OT). Warriors as sole tanks really don't cut it in these situations. You basically need a frost mage to nova, or your caster *will* be tanking. And given that these packs tend to come back to back to back, even the 3 minute c/d on Challenging doesn't really help all that much. I've just always found these packs extremely frustrating as a warrior MT. Personally when I'm not tanking a group, I always pass up a warrior for a pally if I know the instance has these types of packs. All other things being equal, there is absolutely no reason not to. Unfortunately a lot of instances have these types of packs, and I see nothing in WLK that remedies this for either warriors or druids. --
You are sitting there, breathing in your breath You are seldom breathing life, but mostly death  The following have reached Exalted status with "The Red Fang": Riz of the Red Fang |
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| Vitank | #323451 Thursday August 28, 2008 at 17:43 | |
Member |
quote: Originally posted by Redfang: I've just always found these packs extremely frustrating as a warrior MT. Personally when I'm not tanking a group, I always pass up a warrior for a pally if I know the instance has these types of packs. All other things being equal, there is absolutely no reason not to. I for one, love AOE tanking and i'm a warrior. I have to agree with the lack of innate warrior abilities. But it is compensated by items and profession available to us ingame. I truely believe ENGY is made for Warrior to off set this. Engy made shield (Yup i still use it even now at 70 in Kara/ZA and so on where AOE tanking is needed) Examples: Illhoof, Eagle Combine it with Dabiri's Enigma that up the Block Rating from quest line in Netherstorm, will allow you to have HUGE threat on all mob on you. (More then consecrate, trust me) To off set the Armor lost, have Stonescale up ready. Bombs bombs bombbbs, while in defensive stance, they do ALOT more threat then you expect. Snappers are even better (although, more expensive) but also allow you to use a pot right away to get more Heal agro on all. Oil of immolations ... self explain. Example of pulls with all the above is keeping agro on the entire room full of mana worm in Magister's Terrace. Keeping full TPS (hell of rage i tell ya) on the Elite againts a 1k+ DPS shadow bolt lock also keeping the threat on all worms on 2 x mage doing aoe on them. Works just fine got to find all the tricks we can. Was it easy, NO, was it fun, HELL YA, was i supposed to, No way in hell. I'm just suggesting new avenues you might have overlooked, in TBC. ------------------------------ WRT AOE tanking abilities in WotLK, i think we are quite well off: More TPS per TC use and on longer CD = More CD on other ability rotation. New Cone effect/AOE ability with Stun? I'm in. This mean alot more AOE TPS. Just a few of the ability changes that i look forward for AOE abilities. Vitank (Cenarius) |
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| Redfang | #323811 Saturday August 30, 2008 at 06:25 | |
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aka Elkheart, aka Challice |
quote: Originally posted by Vitank: Combine it with Dabiri's Enigma that up the Block Rating from quest line in Netherstorm, will allow you to have HUGE threat on all mob on you. (More then consecrate, trust me) Hmmm... Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter :) I've never been an engineer on Elkheart, and didn't really want to go that way. I was planning on being a JC, once funds allowed for the switch. I've never found BS particularly compelling, but I know a lot of tanks do. Still have to say that if we're required to spec Eng in order to aoe tank, that's a design flaw - but at least it might be possible. You make some big claims and it sounds like you actually get what I'm talking about ;) I just may have to test you out on this... --
You are sitting there, breathing in your breath You are seldom breathing life, but mostly death The following have reached Exalted status with "The Red Fang": Riz of the Red Fang |
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| Vitank | #323983 Saturday August 30, 2008 at 23:27 | |
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Member |
Let's just say, for simplicity, we assume the following: -You're in Evasion gear with "block rating" in mind with these conservative figures: -490 Defence -0 Resilience -15% Parry -20% Dodge -35% Block -You have Defiance (45% threat mod in Def) ------------------------------------------------ Trinket setup: -Dabiri's Enigma: Use: increase you're block rating by 15.9% @ 70. (15 sec) -Figurine of the Colossus: Use: Each successful block heals you for 120. (20 sec) ------------------------------------------------ Shield setup: -Force reactive disk does average of 30dmg per blocked hit to all mob in 5 yards. Equiped with Shield Spikes 26-38 dmg each block. ------------------------------------------------ Utilities: -Fel iron bomb: 330 to 770 in 10 yard (cheap to make) or -Super Sapper Charge: Explodes when triggered, dealing 900 to 1500 Fire damage to all enemies nearby and 675 to 1125 damage to you. (1200 average) I like teh sapper charge because i DON"T HAVE TO AIM, just BOOM. So i can macro it and forget it. -Oil of immolation: Does 50 fire damage to any enemies within a 5 yard radius around the caster every 3 seconds for 15. -Stormchops: Each zap of lightning did about 20-25 damage. Can't remember proc rate (i think its more then 25%) -Good ole Dragonbreath Chili - Nerfed many times but not sure where its at now, and if its stack anymore. ------------------------------------------------ Personnaly i open up with DEM/TC rotation with shield block macro: /castrandom Demoralizing Shout, Thunder Clap /cast shield block Then once position i hit my AOE threat macro: /use Super Sapper Charge /use Oil of immolation /use Dabiri's Enigma /use Figurine of the Colossus Then i call in the DPS after 4 sec of clicking this macro. ------------------------------------------------ The Threat Lets assume a big pull, 30 mobs lvl 71 with a let's say 2sec delay attack. (not counting specials and so on, just plain melee) Make it, let's say the first 4 sec of the fight once you hit the BOOM macro, after positioning. 30 x 2 = 60 attacks (ignoring placement and so on, let's say you got MD with low spell) Out of these attacks we draw the following: Miss: 10% | 5% + 0.04% * (490 - 365) Parry: 15% Dodge: 20% Block: 50.9% | 35% + 15.9% Crushing: 4.1% Normal: 0% Now out of these you can see half will be "blocked" and since shield block will only add 2 more blocked hit that would be blocked anyhow, i'll ignore it totally. So that gives us 30 attack withing the first 4 sec that are blocked. So to recap: Super Sapper Charge AOE 1200 dmg average x 1.45 = 1740 Treat Shield dmg from AOE (all mobs) 30 x 30 dmg = 900 (Can crit) x 1.45 = 1305 threat. Shield heal from trinket 30 x 120 hp = 3600 HP self healed x 1.45 / 2 = 2610 threat Heal from POT 2500 HP x 1.45 / 2 = 1812.5 Threat Oil of immolation 50 dmg x 2 (2 tick) = 100 dmg x 1.45 = 145 threat Stormchops (let's hope we got 2 proc only) 20 dmg x 2 = 40 dmg x 1.45 = 58 threat I'm not gonna count GD at all for a total of 7670ish Threat on all mob. Over the whole 15 sec, 7 strikes from each mobs we have the following TPS: Shield AOE: 305 TPS Shield Heal: 420 TPS Super Sapper Charge: 116 TPS Heal Pot: 121 TPS Oil of Immolation: 16 TPS Full DEM shout rotation on all CD: 41 TPS Total is 1019 TPS for first 15 sec. After that it drops by ALOT. ------------------------------------------------ Yes the Oil, Stormchops and GC effect form DEM shout are minor in the equasion, BUT they will continue to work for a while keeping TPS up. Also, it is to note that while the 2 trinket are up (15sec) your TPS will be high enough to outpace these crazzy mage. Once you hit second 15 or so, or see heal agro kick in tooo high, pop the usual shield wall/last stance and keep TPS going. Once ONE MOB bolts out, AOE taunt as per normal and let them know to finish em NOW with trinket / 30min CD as you have them taunted. Works charm for me, it thinks are NOT dead by then, you: A) needed more aoe DPS; B) thought ya were super Vitank ... naw just kidding, they just had tooo much HP :) PS: Also never underestimate the MD with Voley and Explosive trap's big boom and its first DoT 1 tick, will net you ALOT of TPS, that's how i did that pull (Minus the food and oil, i was out) Vitank (Cenarius) |
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| Vitank edited this message on Saturday August 30, 2008 at 23:59 | ||
| Arkhain | #324034 Sunday August 31, 2008 at 07:57 | |
this is it for a winner! |
I think it's pretty clear that when you have to go out of your way for special consumables and engineering toys to perform a basic role, your class has a problem. Very neat to find an thinking-out-of-the-box solution to it, though. | |