| Erywin | #307748 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 10:37 | |
AP Physical DPS Lead Stylin' |
I shamelessly stole this from the Elitist Jerks forum, all credit goes to Whitefyst of Draenor. This is a break down of the most common Trinkets and haste situations as a Survival Hunter, enjoy :) Pre-End Game Survival Hunter Shot Rotation Analysis Part I For my own information, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the various shot rotations with my various trinkets under various haste effects. I did this to try to get a better feel for how much haste rating I currently want, when to switch rotations under haste, and which trinkets to use. Since there are some interesting as well as anticipated results from this analysis, I thought that I would share it with other survival hunters that are not at end-game gear yet (do not have the T6 4-set bonus). This detailed analysis was done using Cheeky’s spreadsheet, so it obviously an idealization; however, I have observed many of these results in actual raids. If I have time, I may try to perform the analysis (partially of course) in game as well. Background and constraints 1) My ranged weapon is the badge crossbow, [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] since that is the best ranged weapon I have. Thus, this analysis applies for 2.8 base weapon speed with a 2.43 unhasted weapon speed when applying the quiver speed bonus. The results can be extrapolated for 2.9 and 3.0 base weapon speeds by realizing you need about 60 and 120 haste, respectively, to get to starting point of this analysis. 2)Tried out 3 trinket sets, which are my best trinkets. These are (unfortunately I never won [Tsunami Talisman]): a. [Berserker's Call] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller] b. [Berserker's Call] and [Bloodlust Brooch] c. [Berserker's Call] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] Note that the analysis assumes using [Bloodlust Brooch] every time it is off cooldown. Since this probably does occur in application, the actual DPS from this option will be lower than the theoretical. 3) Rest of the gear used is my current gear. 4) Used my talents. I have a 0/20/41 Readiness spec with 2/3 EW and 3/3 TotH. 5) Used the raid buffs that I can count on. The pertinent ones of these are Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, Blessing of Wisdom, Arcane Brilliance, Gift of the Wild, agility food, pet food, Elixir of Major Agility, Elixir of Major Mageblood, and two Superior Mana Oils. Hence, the analysis does not include Leader of the Pact or Grace of Air since I rarely get either. With this set of buffs, the base agility is 1111 (277.75 EW AP). It also includes the boss debuffs of 5 Sunders and Curse of Shadows. 6) Used a Wind Serpent as a pet. 7) Performed the analysis on the following rotations: a. 1:1.5 (with both arcane shot and multishot) b. 1:1.X (with both arcane shot and multishot) c. 2:1 d. 3:2 e. 1:1 For those unfamiliar with the 1:1.X, it is similar to the 1:1.5 in that it does a base of “auto-steady shot”s with using arcane shot and multishot when they are available with at least two “auto-steady shot”s between the specials. With no haste and a slower base weapon speed, this rotation is a 1:1.5 rotation. As haste is increased, the rotation tightens until it is limited by the cooldowns on the specials. As haste continues to increase deadtime starts to exist before the specials such that eventually as haste increases, an additional “auto-steady shot” can be placed before one of the specials pushing that special out some. As haste continues, this new rotation tightens up, then gets some deadtime before the other special, and then inserts another “auto-steady shot” before that special. As haste continues to increase, more “auto-steady shot”s are placed between the specials. Note that the macros with /castrandom multishot, arcane shot is one way of pseudo implementing this rotation, although the macro does not enforce the correct number of “auto-steady shot”s between the specials, but it does insert additional “auto-steady shot”s between them as haste is increased. 8) Performed the analysis starting at 0 haste rating then adding haste rating in steps of 25. In regions where the increase in DPS was “linear”, haste rating was increased in steps of 100 until a non-linear region was encountered, in which case worked backwards to find where the regions changed. 9) For each combination, I recorded DPS, shots per second (SPS), and EW uptime. Note that since [Hourglass of the Unraveller] affects EW uptime via the additional critical strike chance and that the other two trinkets do not, it provides higher EW uptime than the other two do, which both have the same EW uptime. 10) For converting EW AP into raid DPS, I use a factor of 2. This is derived using a 0.25 average coefficient for converting AP to effective DPS and assuming 8 physical DPS in the raid (0.25 * 8 = 2). 11) The baseline rotation for all comparison will be the 1:1.5 rotation when unhasted since the conventional wisdom is that all SV hunters should be using that rotation until they get to endgame with the T6 4-set bonus. It is also the [Berserker's Call] and [Hourglass of the Unraveller] trinket combination since that is currently what I am using. This baseline provides: DPS: 1569.68 SPS: 0.98 EW Uptime: 92.44% (256.75 average EW AP or 513.50 raid DPS) Total DPS: 2083.18 --
  |
|
| Erywin | #307749 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 10:37 | |
|
AP Physical DPS Lead Stylin' |
Pre-End Game Survival Hunter Shot Rotation Analysis Part II Results and Observations 1:1.5 rotation with arcane shot and multishot - Unhasted, the b trinket group provided the most DPS at 1571.52 (+1.84) but with less EW uptime of 91.69 (-0.75% => -2.08 EW AP => -4.16 raid DPS). Thus, the base a trinket set is the best unhasted since it provides at least 2.32 more raid DPS then the other trinket combinations. - DPS and EW uptime both increase with haste until around about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed), which results in a 2.19 weapon speed and 1.01 SPS. At this point the rotation becomes tight and any additional haste provides no benefit to the rotation. At this haste cap, the a trinket set provides 1605.32 DPS and 92.95 EW Uptime, resulting in +35.64 personal DPS, +2.83 raid DPS from EW, and +38.47 overall raid DPS. The b trinket set still provides a little more personal DPS of about +1.98 but still has about -0.72 EW uptime resulting in about -2.01 reduction in overall raid DPS. - Overall for this rotation, the a trinket set is the best theoretically. 1.1.X rotation with arcane shot and multishot - Unhasted, this rotation is the same as the 1:1.5 except that it already has an extra “auto-steady shot” before the second special. The a trinket set performs a little worse than with the 1:1.5. It has 1553.96 (-15.92) DPS, same SPS of 0.98, and a slightly worse EW uptime of 92.33 (-0.11). This results in -16.53 raid DPS. Thus, unhasted, this rotation is worse than the 1:1.5. - However, with just a little bit of haste, this rotation catches up with the 1:1.5. At just 25 HR, it has only -1.47 personal DPS but +0.1 EW uptime for only -0.91 overall raid DPS. Another HR or 2 and it is better than the 1:1.5. - At 75 HR, the current version of this rotation becomes tight. It provides +21.19 personal DPS, +0.02 SPS, and +0.40 EW uptime for +23.41 overall raid DPS. - At about 76 HR, this rotation gets to a switch point and inserts an additional “auto-steady shot” before the first special. At this point a large drop in DPS occurs. At the 80 HR of the haste drums, it provides -34.42 DPS and has -0.34 EW uptime for -35.31 overall raid DPS. - However, by about 135 haste, it catches back up to the 1:1.5 rotation in both DPS and EW uptime (the EW uptime catches up a little sooner though due to slightly higher SPS). - At the about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed) that the 1:1.5 rotation becomes tight and doesn’t improve with haste anymore, this rotation has 1630.27 (+24.95) DPS and 93.45 (+0.50) EW uptime, resulting in +27.72 DPS over the 1:1.5 rotation with the same haste. - As haste is increased, this rotation continues to general increase in both DPS and EW uptime with temporary decreases in both when the rotation reconfigures by adding in additional “auto-steady shot”s. Between 175 and 300 haste, DPS stays increase from 1630.27 to 1642.2, and EW uptime increases from 93.45 to 93.60 for modest gains. - At the next rotation switch around 324 haste, the DPS stays between 1694 and 1710 haste until the next major rotation change around 510 haste at which point DPS varies between 1720 and 1779 DPS, and EW uptime varies between 94.78 and 95.40 until the final switch around 700 haste. - After about 700 haste, the rotation only have minor increases in DPS of less than 1.0 per 25 haste added with very small gains in EW uptime as well as you really cant add anymore “auto-steady shot”s and still have arcane shots and multishots still in the rotation. - During the whole range of haste, trinket set b consistently outperformed trinket set a in DPS with the amount difference increasing as haste increased from about 2 DPS to 5 DPS. On the other hand, the EW uptime was better for set a, but the difference decreased from about 0.8 when unhasted to about 0.4 at 1000 haste. Thus, with this rotation, trinket set b is slightly better, but only if you use the brooch every time it is off cooldown. If you do not use it every time it is off cooldown, then trinket set a is better. - The DPS with trinket set c starts roughly in between sets a and b (roughly 1 DPS less than b). However, as SPS increases with the rotation, the DPS from trinket set c catches up to set b. At the about 175 HR (2.19 weapon speed), the SPS goes above 1.03 and trinket set c start to outperform trinket set b in DPS. By 700 haste and staying roughly the same to 1000 haste, trinket set c does about +7 DPS over set b and +11 over set c. The reason for this improvement is that more steady shots are being performed. - For this rotation, trinket set c is the winner. At 0 haste it is about a wash with set a and within 1 DPS of set b. After about 50 haste, it is better than set a over the rest of the range, and is better than set b after about 175 haste. 2:1 - Unhasted, this rotation does between -100 and -110 DPS across all 3 trinket sets compared to the 1:1.5. - This rotation is only mildly affected by haste throughout the whole range of haste. It increases throughout the whole haste range of 0 to 1000 haste by only 40 DPS from 1470 to 1510 for the best trinket set. - This rotation underperforms the 1:1.5 over its complete range of haste. When the 1:1.5 tops out at 175 haste, it is doing +124 DPS over the 2:1, and at 1000 haste, the 2:1 is still 95 DPS behind the 1:1.5. - EW Uptime is generally always greater than 1% more over the whole haste range with the 1:1.5 than with the 2:1. - Conclusion is that without any 4-set bonus, the 2:1 rotation is always inferior to 1:1.5 rotation and should never be used. - Trinket set c consistently outperforms the other 2 trinket sets by between 8-11 DPS over the complete range due to the large number of steady shots. 3:2: - As with the 2:1 rotation, the best trinket set for the 3:2 throughout the whole range of haste is set c due to the large number of steady shots. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set. - Unhasted, this rotation does 1422.58 (-147) personal DPS with 89.63% (-2.81) EW uptime, resulting in -155 DPS compared to the 1:1.5. - As haste increases, the DPS and EW uptime of this rotation increases steadily until about 250 haste (2.10 weapon speed). At this point, the rotation does 1605.33 DPS (almost exactly the same as the 1:1.5) with 92.67% (-0.38) EW uptime, resulting in still a small loss in overall raid DPS relative to the 1:1.5. Over the rest of the haste range from 250 haste to 1000 haste, this rotation improves only slightly to about 1620 (+15) DPS with 92.87% (-0.08) EW uptime. - Thus, the 3:2 rotation provides very little benefit over the 1:1.5. It should not be used at all below 250 haste and even at 1000 haste the benefit is only about 14 DPS. - Relative to the 1:1.X rotation, this rotation starts -131 DPS lower unhasted with -2.7% EW uptime for about -146 overall raid DPS. At 250 haste when the 3:2 starts making lesser gains, it is still has -32 personal DPS and -0.9 EW uptime for -37 overall raid DPS. After this point it starts to fall farther behind the 1:1.X rotation. At around the haste rating of Rapid Fire, it is about -150 personal DPS and -2.5% EW uptime for -164 overall raid DPS, with the difference continuing to grow up to 1000 haste rating. 1:1: - The “best” trinket set for the 1:1 throughout most of the range of haste is set c due to the large number of steady shots. Hence, numbers provided will be for this trinket set. Note that at 0 haste, it trails set a by about 5 overall DPS (mostly from better EW uptime) and catches it around 250 haste. Since this rotation underperforms the 1:1.5 in this range that set a is better and would not be used then, set c is the best since it performs better over the pertinent haste ranges. - Unhasted, this rotation does 1304 (-266) DPS with 87.13 (-5.31) EW uptime for -295 over raid DPS compared to the 1:1.5. - The 1:1 does not outperform the 1:1.5 until just over 400 haste. - Between 400 and 725 haste, the 1:1 rotation continues to perform better and better with doing 1827 (+222) DPS and 95.27 (+2.32) EW uptime for +235 overall raid DPS at 725 haste. - After 725 haste, this rotation tightens up and only gains about 4 DPS and 0.18% EW uptime over the last 250 haste. - Thus, compared to the 1:1.5 rotation, the 1:1 shouldn’t be switched to for haste effects up to just over 400 haste (don’t switch for a haste potion use alone). When under greater than 400 haste, switch to the 1:1. - This rotation does not outperform the 1:1.X rotation until about 575 haste, so if you are performing the 1:1.X rotation, you shouldn’t switch to the 1:1 until you have haste effects greater than 575 haste. - Both the 1:1 and 1:1.X rotations “stall out” at about the same haste rating of 725. - At 1000 haste, the 1:1 outperforms the 1:1.X rotation by 57.6 personal DPS with about the same EW uptime so that the overall raid DPS difference is 57.6. --
|
|
| Erywin | #307750 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 10:37 | |
|
AP Physical DPS Lead Stylin' |
Pre-End Game Survival Hunter Shot Rotation Analysis Part III (final) Recommendation The results of this analysis leads me to two recommendations. The first somewhat follows conventional wisdom. Use the 1:1.5 rotation until around 425 haste. Then switch to the 1:1 with haste effects above 425. Avoid the 2:1 rotation since it is never better than the 1:1.5. Suggest avoiding the 3:2 rotation since it is always inferior to the 1:1.5 under 425 haste and the 1:1 over 425 haste, although if you do the 3:2 between 250 and 425 haste, the loss in DPS from using the better rotation is relatively small (about -20 DPS at most). In regards to trinkets, suggest using the a trinket set if the large majority of your DPS uptime is unhasted or below 425 haste (drums alone or haste potion alone). However, if you operate a large portion of your DPS uptime with haste above 425, then trinket set c will probably be a little better. However, the DPS difference between the two trinket sets is relatively small (about 12 DPS at the maximum), so either option is good. An improvement can be obtained to the above recommendation by obtaining some passive haste (as long as the haste items do not hurt your other stats much). Just getting over 25 passive haste will not only make your unhasted rotation a little better DPS-wise, but it will also make switching to the 1:1 under haste potions alone provide a DPS boost. Adding more passive haste beyond that (as long as stats are not hurt) will result in even more DPS unhasted and with the 1:1 rotation providing more DPS under the various large haste effects. For the amount of passive haste you have, switch to the 1:1 at haste effects at 425 - passive haste. The second recommendation is a little less conventional. Use the 1:1.X rotation instead of the 1:1.5. The 1:1.X will be used until about 575 haste at which point switch to the 1:1 rotation. Although unhasted, the 1:1.X performs slightly worse than the 1:1.5 rotation, that loss in unhasted DPS should be more than be made up for with the much larger additional DPS when under haste effects between 50 and 575 haste. The situation can be improved on a little more by adding at least about 27 passive haste (as long as you do not lose too much other stats with swapping in the haste item). Doing so results in the 1:1.X rotation outperforming the 1:1.5 rotation over the complete range, including when unhasted. It also means that you should switch over to the 1:1 a little sooner (575 – passive haste rating). Either trinket set is fine to use with this scheme as well. If you are unhasted most of your DPS uptime, I would recommend trinket set a; however, if you are under haste effects a good portion of your DPS uptime, then trinket set c is best due to doing a larger proportion of steady shots. --
|
|
| Riz | #307762 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 12:47 | |
Nebwie DPS |
Wow, great info. Pass along my thanks! Unfortunately, this isn't immediately helping my decision between the badge-gear Hasted Axe of Rampant Death (to replace my S3 Waraxe) and Crossbow Of Killing Macros (to replace my Arcanite Steam-Pistol). I may have typoed the names, sorry. At present, I'm kindof leaning towards the axe. I have 30 haste rating now, I believe, from the Arrowfall Chestguard. So if I stick with my ASP, then I'd need 60 haste to make up for the attack speed, which is roughly what the axe provides. So basically, the axe haste isn't helping me at all, then. Am I reading that right? I know my raid won't hate me if I cling to my steam-pistol a bit longer just because I like it, but I do feel obligated to max my DPS. --
Perya: "My official response was: 'Uhhhhhmmmmm' " |
|
| Erywin | #307771 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 15:06 | |
|
AP Physical DPS Lead Stylin' |
For comparisons like that I would plug both items into Cheeky's Spreadsheet and see which combo gives you more DPS and go with that. Cheers, E --
|
|
| Troll | #307795 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 17:03 | |
|
Member |
Ya know in the end I am not sure who to believe. This thread ends up recommending a 1:1.5 or 1:1.X. Meanwhile, a supposed expert on SV, Alumatine, began a page on his old website saying, "Ok.. I wouldn’t recommend using these but many MM and SV hunters want a 1:1.5 Macro., so hear they are." And lastly, on these same boards, Rafiky seems to recommend the 3:2 over all else because it 'adjusts' to haste changes eventually becoming equal to a 1:1. Also, all 1:1.5 macros I have seen include Multishot, which you cannot use in CC situations. So what would a 1:1.5 look like w/o multi? I don't think I have ever seen a macro for 1:1.X. What would that look like? --
  |
|
| Rafiky | #307796 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 17:29 | |
Roster Monkey |
for BM 3:2 is the only way to do it. arcane shot and multi shot are a bit too mana intensive for BM hunters, but can be good situationally. for SV/MM i lean towards the 1:1.5/X. I use the /castsequence macros for SV/MM specs and then manually weave in arcane/multi/another Steady depending on what the cast time is. The 3:2 macro will turn into a 1:1 with enough haste rating, but again it's the best to use only if your BM, due to Serpent Swiftness affecting the CD of steady. edited: i let my brain get ahead of my fingers --
Listen to teh monkie 70 NE Hunter http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightbringer&n=Rukhanu |
|
| Rafiky edited this message on Saturday June 21, 2008 at 21:04 | ||
| Troll | #307804 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 20:24 | |
|
Member |
quote: Originally posted by Rafiky: The 3:2 macro will turn into a 1:1 with enough haste rating, but again it's the best to use unless your BM, due to Serpent Swiftness affecting the CD of steady. I assume you meant, "...it's NOT the best to use unless your BM..." ?? --
|
|
| Rafiky | #307805 Saturday June 21, 2008 at 21:05 | |
|
Roster Monkey |
fixed it, sorry
--
Listen to teh monkie 70 NE Hunter http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightbringer&n=Rukhanu |
|
| Riz | #309693 Wednesday July 2, 2008 at 08:19 | |
|
Nebwie DPS |
I've fished around a bit and am a bit confused. Can someone throw up a 1:1.x macro?
--
Perya: "My official response was: 'Uhhhhhmmmmm' " |
|
| Chielah | #309701 Wednesday July 2, 2008 at 08:54 | |
|
Rawrrawrrawr |
quote: Originally posted by Troll: Meanwhile, a supposed expert on SV, Alumatine, began a page on his old website saying, "Ok.. I wouldn’t recommend using these but many MM and SV hunters want a 1:1.5 Macro., so hear they are." Just to follow up on this, Alu would recommend hand weaving a 1:1.5 rotation instead of using a macro. I don't think he was saying a 1:1.5 is bad. |
|
| Chielah | #309702 Wednesday July 2, 2008 at 08:57 | |
|
Rawrrawrrawr |
quote: Originally posted by Riz: I've fished around a bit and am a bit confused. Can someone throw up a 1:1.x macro? I'd guess a macro do to it would have this: /castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot /castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot /castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command and any other bells and whistles you like to make your macros less annoying to spam. |
|
| Quarlo | #309707 Wednesday July 2, 2008 at 09:30 | |
Member |
OMG. Reading this post has sucked all the fun out of being a hunter. I felt like I was reading a calculus text book. Who knew I would need my old Texas Instruments Scientific calculator and slide rule to play Warcraft? Great information tho. |
|
| Erywin | #309774 Wednesday July 2, 2008 at 15:40 | |
|
AP Physical DPS Lead Stylin' |
Yup Hunters since BC, well Steady shot really, have been arguably the hardest class to figure out mechanics-wise. Thankfully Blizzard has announced that they are fixing Steady/Auto shots in Wrath, here is hoping that they actually manage to fix it and not fubar it up even more.
--
|
|
| Telumehtar | #315376 Friday July 25, 2008 at 09:10 | |
TBD Lead |
Thanks for the post Ery. Kind of sums what I've read in dozens of other threads throughout TKA and EJ.
--
Telumehtar - Protection Paladin of Elune Minueta - Survival Hunter Almagest - Elemental Shaman |
|