| Chielah | #305889 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 11:20 | |
Rawrrawrrawr |
So, I'm starting to look at putting together a decent bear tanking set for helping out as an OT. The first question I had is what gear minimums would you like to see on a feral before you took them into Kara, T4, T5, etc. As of right now, my bear stats are 12K health, 22K armor and 40% dodge unbuffed. I should be able to improve on those numbers quite a bit in the next few weeks (which, btw, if you ever come across a Badge of Tenacity on the AH, make sure to give me a heads up), but where would my current level of gear put me? How far off am I from having the gear to OT Gruul or MT Prince? I'm also looking to start getting some tanking practice. If anyone needs a tank for heroics and they don't mind putting up with someone fairly new to tanking, feel free to ask me and I'll come right along. |
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| Alaunt | #305893 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 11:35 | |
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Although you should read the whole thread here, or at least the Bear post on page 1, the most important point is: quote: Originally posted by elitistjerks.com: The main priorities as a bear are to get un-crittable (for which you need 2.6% anti-crit), get decent amounts of health and armour and, if in an OT or hybrid role, stack agility. 2.6% anti-crit is 156 defence rating (415 defence total) (155 will not do, although the character screen will inform you that you have 2.6% less chance to be crit (415 defence)!) or 103 resillience. You can mix and match, but make sure you check afterwards that you have a total that comes out to more than 2.6% to be safe. Remember that although you need more defence, you do get some avoidance out of it so it's not always most worth getting pure resillience. If you want to skip a point in SotF, you need 1% more crit immunity to make up for it (39.4 resillience or 25 defence (60 defence rating)). To get to the full cap (i.e. no points in SotF) you need 221 resillience or 140 defence (336 defence rating) in total. Armor, dodge, and stamina are all secondary to being uncrittable. You can theorycraft the exact avoidance granted by each one if you are interested, and there are extensive feral gear lists out there. |
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| Chielah | #305894 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 11:43 | |
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Rawrrawrrawr |
quote: Originally posted by Alaunt: Although you should read the whole thread here, or at least the Bear post on page 1, the most important point is: quote: Originally posted by elitistjerks.com: The main priorities as a bear are to get un-crittable (for which you need 2.6% anti-crit), get decent amounts of health and armour and, if in an OT or hybrid role, stack agility. 2.6% anti-crit is 156 defence rating (415 defence total) (155 will not do, although the character screen will inform you that you have 2.6% less chance to be crit (415 defence)!) or 103 resillience. You can mix and match, but make sure you check afterwards that you have a total that comes out to more than 2.6% to be safe. Remember that although you need more defence, you do get some avoidance out of it so it's not always most worth getting pure resillience. If you want to skip a point in SotF, you need 1% more crit immunity to make up for it (39.4 resillience or 25 defence (60 defence rating)). To get to the full cap (i.e. no points in SotF) you need 221 resillience or 140 defence (336 defence rating) in total. Armor, dodge, and stamina are all secondary to being uncrittable. You can theorycraft the exact avoidance granted by each one if you are interested, and there are extensive feral gear lists out there. Oh, I'm definitely uncrittable. Guess I should have mentioned that... The problem is that I wasn't able to parse the specific information I asked for out of that thread. |
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| Wilheilm | #305895 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 12:00 | |
Fear the 'Stache |
I would say that you are fine for a OT in Kara. My sister inlaw started OTing in Kara with less than what you have and she did fine.
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Catform: AP 3300+, Crit 40%+ Bearform: HP 13k+, Armor 27.5k+ |
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| Alaunt | #305911 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 13:38 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Chielah: Oh, I'm definitely uncrittable. Guess I should have mentioned that... The problem is that I wasn't able to parse the specific information I asked for out of that thread. There are no fixed armor & health values for MTing Prince or OTing Gruul since they only contribute to your overall survivability and there are other variables such as incoming HPS, etc. For P2 prince having enough health to survive a triple crush is ideal since flurry pretty much guarantees all 3 attacks land before any heals (provided all 3 hit and crush you). However, you might find enough health to survive 2 more than sufficient to start MTing him if your group has good DPS (which they should maximize in P2 anyway). Druids soak hateful strikes for Gruul quite well; their high armor means they can survive a lot of growths without risking getting one-shotted. For reference Wowwiki lists "The base damage on Hurtful Strike is 12,350-13,650 (this, of course, is reduced by armor, Defensive Stance, etc.)" Given the numbers you gave I would recommend boosting your armor and health; 40% dodge isn't a bad place to be at your gear level. |
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| dagris | #305916 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 14:06 | |
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Member |
quote: Originally posted by Alaunt:There are no fixed armor & health values for MTing Prince or OTing Gruul since they only contribute to your overall survivability and there are other variables such as incoming HPS, etc. I wouldn't necessarily say that, with the way Gruul's growth's work if you don't have suffucient mitigation/health he can definitely 1-shot you. I'd say you're fine to start OTing Kara. Your dodde % should be good up to starting SSC if you wished, you'll probably want to be working towards 50% or so by the end of SSC/T6 level. I'd look for 22k armor starting Kara, 24-26k for MTing Kara including Prince, and 26-28k for starting/MTing in SSC or TK, shooting for 32k cap for T6. Health wise 12k is alright for the early bosses of Kara but not enough for Prince, I'd shoot for closer to 14-15k there. 16k health to start in SSC or so, 18k when you're wrapping it up, and 18-20k for entering the T6 content if you wanted to run as a MT. |
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| Chielah | #305925 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 14:37 | |
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Rawrrawrrawr |
quote: Originally posted by dagris: quote: Originally posted by Alaunt:There are no fixed armor & health values for MTing Prince or OTing Gruul since they only contribute to your overall survivability and there are other variables such as incoming HPS, etc. I wouldn't necessarily say that, with the way Gruul's growth's work if you don't have suffucient mitigation/health he can definitely 1-shot you. I'd say you're fine to start OTing Kara. Your dodde % should be good up to starting SSC if you wished, you'll probably want to be working towards 50% or so by the end of SSC/T6 level. I'd look for 22k armor starting Kara, 24-26k for MTing Kara including Prince, and 26-28k for starting/MTing in SSC or TK, shooting for 32k cap for T6. Health wise 12k is alright for the early bosses of Kara but not enough for Prince, I'd shoot for closer to 14-15k there. 16k health to start in SSC or so, 18k when you're wrapping it up, and 18-20k for entering the T6 content if you wanted to run as a MT. Thanks, that's what I was looking for. The armor values are about what I was expecting, but the health values seem higher. Those are for unbuffed druids chillin' in bear form? Anyway, I'm ~100 badges, ~10 hours of AV and ~2000G away from hitting 14K health and 25K armor unbuffed (with good dodge and good threat gen stats) in my rawrbear set. I think that'll keep me happy. |
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| Hypiron | #305931 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 15:02 | |
Bald Mage in a Pink Dress |
Currently Antenor unbiffed sits at 15.3k health, 31k armor and 45% dodge. Though I will say I was main-tanking karazhan with much less stats somehow. Somewhere around 12k health, 25k armor and 30% dodge; so it can be done but yes it was very rough.
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The Innocent shall suffer, Big time. |
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| dagris | #305936 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 15:14 | |
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Member |
quote: Originally posted by Chielah:Those are for unbuffed druids chillin' in bear form? Nah, those were for buffed stats :) Never know what buffs are going to be available or not, especially in a 10-man, so buffed stats are a more accurate reflection of what ya need for a boss to my mind then unbuffed which could vary by nearly 1k health depending on the buffs you get :) (yay Kings) |
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| Fenrys | #305937 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 15:15 | |
Leather Tnak |
quote: Originally posted by Alaunt: quote: Originally posted by Chielah: Oh, I'm definitely uncrittable. Guess I should have mentioned that... The problem is that I wasn't able to parse the specific information I asked for out of that thread. There are no fixed armor & health values for MTing Prince or OTing Gruul since they only contribute to your overall survivability and there are other variables such as incoming HPS, etc. For P2 prince having enough health to survive a triple crush is ideal since flurry pretty much guarantees all 3 attacks land before any heals (provided all 3 hit and crush you). However, you might find enough health to survive 2 more than sufficient to start MTing him if your group has good DPS (which they should maximize in P2 anyway). Druids soak hateful strikes for Gruul quite well; their high armor means they can survive a lot of growths without risking getting one-shotted. For reference Wowwiki lists "The base damage on Hurtful Strike is 12,350-13,650 (this, of course, is reduced by armor, Defensive Stance, etc.)" Given the numbers you gave I would recommend boosting your armor and health; 40% dodge isn't a bad place to be at your gear level. 40% dodge unbuffed is about where you want to be at any gear level. Any higher and with raid buffs and you'll get crushed more and more often due to the way crushes work. |
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| Fenrys | #305941 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 15:20 | |
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Leather Tnak |
quote: Originally posted by dagris: quote: Originally posted by Alaunt:There are no fixed armor & health values for MTing Prince or OTing Gruul since they only contribute to your overall survivability and there are other variables such as incoming HPS, etc. I wouldn't necessarily say that, with the way Gruul's growth's work if you don't have suffucient mitigation/health he can definitely 1-shot you. I'd say you're fine to start OTing Kara. Your dodde % should be good up to starting SSC if you wished, you'll probably want to be working towards 50% or so by the end of SSC/T6 level. I'd look for 22k armor starting Kara, 24-26k for MTing Kara including Prince, and 26-28k for starting/MTing in SSC or TK, shooting for 32k cap for T6. Health wise 12k is alright for the early bosses of Kara but not enough for Prince, I'd shoot for closer to 14-15k there. 16k health to start in SSC or so, 18k when you're wrapping it up, and 18-20k for entering the T6 content if you wanted to run as a MT. Dagris, just a question? Where are you getting 32k as the armor cap? Or am I reading it wrong? As far as I'm aware the cap is 35880 for bosses. |
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| mewdied | #305958 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 16:43 | |
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I rolled a 4 on the Bear Mount >< |
quote: Originally posted by Fenrys: quote: Originally posted by dagris: quote: Originally posted by Alaunt:There are no fixed armor & health values for MTing Prince or OTing Gruul since they only contribute to your overall survivability and there are other variables such as incoming HPS, etc. I wouldn't necessarily say that, with the way Gruul's growth's work if you don't have suffucient mitigation/health he can definitely 1-shot you. I'd say you're fine to start OTing Kara. Your dodde % should be good up to starting SSC if you wished, you'll probably want to be working towards 50% or so by the end of SSC/T6 level. I'd look for 22k armor starting Kara, 24-26k for MTing Kara including Prince, and 26-28k for starting/MTing in SSC or TK, shooting for 32k cap for T6. Health wise 12k is alright for the early bosses of Kara but not enough for Prince, I'd shoot for closer to 14-15k there. 16k health to start in SSC or so, 18k when you're wrapping it up, and 18-20k for entering the T6 content if you wanted to run as a MT. Dagris, just a question? Where are you getting 32k as the armor cap? Or am I reading it wrong? As far as I'm aware the cap is 35880 for bosses. I believe 32K is the cap against lvl 70 mobs, which is where the character sheet will show the cap. All theorycrafters have it at 35880. Buffs can push you closer to this, so you don't necessarily need it unbuffed. (devo aura, more agility from kings = more armor, agi food, etc.) |
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| dagris | #305977 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 17:48 | |
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Member |
It was a typo ;) As to Crushes and Dodge, that's a misnomer. You will always get Crushed 15% of the time, regardless of whether you have 20% dodge or 85% dodge. It's just that at 85% dodge -all- the damage you take is going to be crushing. It will be the same amount of crushing damage, but it will seem spikier because it is coming in bursts without smaller damage showing up in between. In other words there is no reason to avoid dodge at all so long as you aren't sacrificing in other areas to get it. The only real downside to high dodge is the potential for being rage starved and losing some threat generation capability. Edit: Also worth keeping in mind that Blizz is moving away from Crushes as a mechanic (Archimonde doesn't for instance, nor Sunwell I believe). Additionally all enemies in sunwell have a buff which decreases their chance to be dodged by 20% in order to mitigate the crushing removal...so 40% dodge in Sunwell is only 20%, even though you won't get Crushed 15% of the time |
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| Fenrys | #305988 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 19:46 | |
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Leather Tnak |
quote: Originally posted by dagris: It was a typo ;) As to Crushes and Dodge, that's a misnomer. You will always get Crushed 15% of the time, regardless of whether you have 20% dodge or 85% dodge. It's just that at 85% dodge -all- the damage you take is going to be crushing. It will be the same amount of crushing damage, but it will seem spikier because it is coming in bursts without smaller damage showing up in between. In other words there is no reason to avoid dodge at all so long as you aren't sacrificing in other areas to get it. The only real downside to high dodge is the potential for being rage starved and losing some threat generation capability. Edit: Also worth keeping in mind that Blizz is moving away from Crushes as a mechanic (Archimonde doesn't for instance, nor Sunwell I believe). Additionally all enemies in sunwell have a buff which decreases their chance to be dodged by 20% in order to mitigate the crushing removal...so 40% dodge in Sunwell is only 20%, even though you won't get Crushed 15% of the time Let's just say some bosses you don't want to get chain-crushed by if you can help it. Also, I think I heard something about them removing crushing blows in WotLK? It may have just been a rumor though. |
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| Todyn | #307539 Friday June 20, 2008 at 10:02 | |
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Member |
quote: Originally posted by Fenrys: quote: Originally posted by dagris: It was a typo ;) As to Crushes and Dodge, that's a misnomer. You will always get Crushed 15% of the time, regardless of whether you have 20% dodge or 85% dodge. It's just that at 85% dodge -all- the damage you take is going to be crushing. It will be the same amount of crushing damage, but it will seem spikier because it is coming in bursts without smaller damage showing up in between. In other words there is no reason to avoid dodge at all so long as you aren't sacrificing in other areas to get it. The only real downside to high dodge is the potential for being rage starved and losing some threat generation capability. Edit: Also worth keeping in mind that Blizz is moving away from Crushes as a mechanic (Archimonde doesn't for instance, nor Sunwell I believe). Additionally all enemies in sunwell have a buff which decreases their chance to be dodged by 20% in order to mitigate the crushing removal...so 40% dodge in Sunwell is only 20%, even though you won't get Crushed 15% of the time Let's just say some bosses you don't want to get chain-crushed by if you can help it. Also, I think I heard something about them removing crushing blows in WotLK? It may have just been a rumor though. I've heard this as well It seems to me that Blizzard is having a niche tank role for each of the four tank classes in WOTLK Bears: Slow, hard hitting mobs Paladins: Fast hitting dual wielding/trash Deathknights: Spellcasting mobs Warriors: all and none of the above |
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