| Lweien | #299205 Thursday May 8, 2008 at 02:05 | |
Member |
OK, I'm currently combat daggers, having been daggers since I started this game. However, lately, I've been hearing that Combat Swords provides better DPS. I've recently obtained this Quickening Blade of the Prince, and was thinking of this build here. My armory profile can be seen here. If any of you can provide me with any advice, it would be greatly appreciated. :) --
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield. While I draw breath, they shall not perish. So long as they live, our enemies will fall. I am defender, protector, guardian. I am a Paladin. |
|
| Nocthil | #304308 Monday June 2, 2008 at 13:19 | |
Member |
If you've only heard this lately than you have missed something. Combat Swords has beat the crap out of Combat Daggers since BC came out. Pre-BC Daggers were champ but now...Swords all the way. Also, the build you linked there is absolutely terrible. In just about every way possible. For PvE you should be a 20/41/0 Combat Swords Spec(Unless you have crap swords or way better other weps, daggers excluded). If you want I can detail why that spec sucks but for now just use this build here. |
|
| Alisia | #304314 Monday June 2, 2008 at 13:54 | |
Ready for Winter |
A kinder gentler answer: The spec you gave is not a terrible spec if you are not raiding. It has a lot of nice utility, but has a high gear requirement to even be competetive in a raiding situation. There is another post on that subject on these boards, but unfortunately I cannot search for it right now. However, it is true that sword spec is the highest current dps spec you can have. The sword you linked would be well served as an offhand. However one of the best offhands would be the Latro's Shifting Sword. Which pairs nicely with the mainhand that drops from Normal Magister's Terrace. If you want to stay daggers then you should look at a mutilate spec. It is very gear dependent, but it's very fun to play. Though also remember that if you cannot get your hand on a good mainhand sword it is possible to go a hybrid spec to something like fist/sword or mace/sword and keep strong dps. Where you use the sword in the offhand, which still causes the sword spec procs. I'm currently fist/sword because it was just going to be easier to get the upgrade from the badge fist weapon than wait any longer for Anetheron's sword when we're phasing Hyjal out. If you want to play around with gear and specs, a good way is with the spreadsheet at rogue.raidcal.com. And it should give you a good idea on specs that are well tested and talent modelling. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
|
| Alisia edited this message on Tuesday June 3, 2008 at 07:12 | ||
| Flufkin | #305708 Monday June 9, 2008 at 12:32 | |
Chaotic Good in a tiny, pointy package |
Alisia is spot on in her comments. I'll agree that if you're into PvE dps, swords is the way to go. It was like emotional tooth pulling to get me to finally drop daggers for raiding, but I did it, and I'm gonna stick with it. (although I cry a little inside whenever a sweet dagger drops) For some reason, Blizz has currently made it to where sword rogues are tops for PvE dps, yet a lot of the nice "rogue" weapons that drop in T5/T6 instances and the new badge weaps are daggers. you can see Blizzard loves us.... really! Alisia also had good advice about A) go to rogue.raidcal.com for the spreadsheet to play with. and B) definitely play around with a combo if you only have one good sword to start with. When I made the transition, I used a Fist weapon mainhand I'd gotten from Heroic SH because nobody wanted it and it was forced upon me, to rot in my bank... and the offhand sword from Akil'zon which was a save roll. Played with that for a bit, saw the difference in raid dps.. then decided to take the plunge, spend arena points on the MH sword, and get the enchants. It'll take a bit of money to respec to find what you like, and definitely try it out with sword/fist/mace/whatever to make sure you like the style of play as combat swords. If you don't have fun with them, don't stick with it and go back to daggers.. mutilate is indeed a good choice, if you decide to do that. I wouldn't try PvE raiding as subtlety - it's very hard to do, and a lot of people will look at your spec and .... shall we say.... make assumptions about your damage output. Dagger rogues may not top the dps charts in raid PvE, but you can still be a big asset to your raid. Not having fun would be worse, because nobody likes raiding with a grumpy rogue. =P --
   ~~ the emotional tylopod asks you to stop ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://xkcd.com/386/ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
|
| Flufkin | #306004 Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 21:15 | |
|
Chaotic Good in a tiny, pointy package |
quote: Originally posted by Nocthil: If you've only heard this lately than you have missed something. Combat Swords has beat the crap out of Combat Daggers since BC came out. Pre-BC Daggers were champ but now...Swords all the way. Also, the build you linked there is absolutely terrible. In just about every way possible. For PvE you should be a 20/41/0 Combat Swords Spec(Unless you have crap swords or way better other weps, daggers excluded). If you want I can detail why that spec sucks but for now just use this build here. (by the way, Noc, we try to be a little more polite here than in the regular WoW rogue forums =) ) Okay, so now I was able to actually take a look at the specs, since I'm not at work and "gaming" sites are no longer blocked *whistles innocently* I have to disagree with the spec being "absolutely terrible" - it looks like a standard "Hemo-Combat Potency" spec. Playing with my spreadsheet, I found that that spec (in theory) would out-dps the standard cookie cutter 20/41/0 spec in almost all gear levels, and would only be beaten by the "hemo swords" 11/28/22 spec in early Kara gear, and around T5 level gear. This is all assuming 98% SnD uptime, 60% Rupture uptime, and 27% Hemo DPS, 59% white hit DPS, 8% Finisher DPS, and 6% "other". Not saying everyone should go spec Hemo/Combat Potency, because it does also depend on raid style, very good gear, etc - but honestly, denouncing this spec as "absolutely terrible" isn't really fair at all. Now, that being said, I'd also suggest that you try using the "cookie cutter" approach to combat swords at first, because it certainly will help you put out your best dps while you learn the style of play with swords. Personally, I think it's a good spec for when conditions aren't "ideal" (i.e. - every raid) That's part of the problem with sheets, is that sometimes you have to consider that your dps isn't occurring in a vacuum, on a boss that doesn't move and in an environment where you are always able to stand and dps continually - so the numbers might not add up quite the same as their's. If you get into the swords groove and really like it, but you miss hemo and the advantages of it, (and the serrated blades goodness), you can try hemo swords, or hemo/combat potency, again. Some high end rogues have Hemo sword spec, to complement the T6 level gear's focus on armor penetration. The whole thing is about balance, really - for raid dps, do you want to sacrifice points in say "aggression" or "malice" and "lethality" by using them in the filler spots in the sub tree in order to get to serrated blades and hemo? Once you get going, and get into a stable group - if you really do want to try the "odd" specs out, make sure your group does WoWWebStats regularly, or keep a combat log yourself and upload it to WWS - then two weeks in a row, choose an instance that you will be fighting the same bosses/trash in as the previous week, and respec during the week between them - then compare your performance. Nothing speaks louder than your own numbers! =) Let us know how it's going! edit: here's that other thread that Alisia mentioned. She did a lot of number crunching for that one too. =) http://leftoversraiding.org/index.php/topic/27430/1/hemo-swords.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --
~~ the emotional tylopod asks you to stop ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://xkcd.com/386/ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
|
| Flufkin edited this message on Tuesday June 10, 2008 at 22:03 | ||
| Arkhain | #306026 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 00:04 | |
this is it for a winner! |
CP/Hemo? Paging Elofax, paging Elofax, please come to the information desk. | |
| Elofax | #306032 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 00:48 | |
Holy Assassin of Elune |
Hai thar, I just noticed that the build Nocthil thinks is so terrible wasn't some scrub deep Subtlety daggers build, but is in fact my very own 0/40/21 Combat Hemo build. Here are some shiny bits on it from my experiences: 1. Depending on your gear level, you may get a higher Damage per Energy with Sinister Strike and standard Ass/Com, or you might get a higher Damage per Energy with Hemo. Find a reliable spreadsheet or look up the formulas yourself and run the numbers. Don't forget to account for the increased damage from crits from Ass/Com on the one hand, or the increased damage from armor penetration from Com/Sub on the other. 2. In addition to the benefits of armor penetration, Serrated Blades increases your Rupture damage. On a boss fight (and what else matters, really) you're not going to be using anything but SnD and Rupture anyway, so this can be a significant boost, especially with a feral tossing in Mangle. 3. Ass/Com gets a certain benefit against Murderable mobs, so if you're fighting a lot of humanoids etc., it gets an edge. If you're fighting mostly undead and demons, it doesn't. 4. Com/Sub gets more tricks outside of straight damage: full Imp Sprint every 3.5 minutes, Evasion every 3.5 minutes, higher dodge rates in general, Ghostly Strike for a mini-Evasion, 3.5 minute Vanishes, extended Sap range with increased Stealth efficiency and speed. 5. Having one Hemo rogue in a raid boosts all physical dps by a decent amount, and the increase to raid dps should thus be balanced against any decrease to personal dps. Caster-heavy raids may benefit less from Hemo than physical-heavy. 6. THIS IS THE KEY POINT HERE! You're trading off the energy/combo point recovery of Assassination in exchange for the rapid combo point generation of Hemo. This means that under certain circumstances you might lose the ability to maintain a consistent SnD/Rupture cycle (i.e. being able to drop Ruptures while keeping SnD up). The energy lost from Assassination must be balanced out somehow for Hemo to work in a raiding environment. A lot of people think that trispec (11 Assassination, Hemo, and the rest in Combat) was the way to counteract this. I strongly disagree--check your WWS logs sometime and compare how much energy you get back from Relentless Strikes, and how much you get back from Combat Potency. CP flat out blows every other raiding talent out of the water, in my opinion (and it doesn't hurt that to get it, you acquire other must-have talents: DW Spec, Sword Spec, Expertise, Ad Rush, etc.). So what does it take to make Hemo/Combat Potency work, energy-wise? Couple of possibilities: the strongest is if you have Rod of the Sun King, which has a flat 5% proc to get 10 energy back per hit. Best damn weapon pre-warglaives in my experience. The other possibility is that Combat Potency itself provides you with enough energy to get your cycles to work. This requires the right offhand (1.4 speed is ideal, 1.5 might or might not work), a good amount of hit (I wasn't getting Com/Sub to work with only 264 hit, but it worked just fine tonight with 315 hit), and preferably some expertise gear and maybe haste gear as well--anything that increases how often you connect with an offhand attack is key. SUMMARY: If you're an experienced rogue looking to try something different and a bit more flexible than Ass/Com, give CP Hemo a try and see what you think. Just make sure you have the proper gear to support it, and be ready to spec back if you find yourself not able to maintain finisher cycles (after all, what good does increased Rupture damage do if you never get to drop a Rupture?). Also sorry if this post is more rambly than my usual theorycrafting, it's finals week, I pulled an all-nighter comparing Kant, Hegel, and Marx on freedom, and I'm kinda stream of consciousnessing it up atm. =) |
|
| Elofax | #306033 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 00:50 | |
|
Holy Assassin of Elune |
One other thought from something in Flufkin's post: CP Hemo is more movement-friendly of a build than Ass/Com is, in my experience. | |
| Paks | #306038 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 01:26 | |
YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
I just went from 16/0/45 to 11/28/22 Hemo Swords. Just some of my thoughts. 1. I miss Shadowstep TERRIBLY. Don't ever spec into it, you'll hate losing it. 2. Don't go Deep Sub for PvE unless you're prepared to work for your DPS. Can I manage to stay within a couple percent of a cookie-cutter with similar gear? Yep. But man did I work my ass off for it. (Shadowstep/Premed, Garrote, Hemo, Rupture, Vanish, Ambush, SnD, Hemo to 5, rupture, Prep, Vanish, Shadowstep/Premed, Garrote, Hemo, Rupture, spam Hemo and hope the fight goes long enough for your imp Vanish cooldown to be up, otherwise keep doing the SnD/Rupture Boogey.) Meanwhile the Ass/Com rogue just waltzed up, opened with a Garrote, and immediately went to SnD/Rupture and stayed that way. From an ease-of-use and output-for-effort scale, 20/41/0 Combat Swords is the way to go. 3. 11/28/22 is a pretty nice spec. You get all the nice frill stuff moving your way up to Hemo like MoD and Camo that makes farming a tad easier, you get great combo-point generation, and you get okayish energy regen. It would work if you really want to go Hemo but are worried about energy regen and Elofax hasn't convined you. 4. CP/Hemo intrigues me. Think I'm going to bring the rogue out for a spin with that build and run a WWS comparison. Should be interesting, to say the least. --
Charter Lead - Maelstrom (Tanks)  |
|
| Alisia | #306047 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 04:01 | |
|
Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Elofax: This requires the right offhand (1.4 speed is ideal, 1.5 might or might not work), a good amount of hit (I wasn't getting Com/Sub to work with only 264 hit, but it worked just fine tonight with 315 hit), and preferably some expertise gear and maybe haste gear as well--anything that increases how often you connect with an offhand attack is key. HAHAHA *does the Mad Scientist "I was right" dance* Look in "Read-this-if-you're-combat" post quote: edit: It looks like you'd need to be able to take the oh weapon to .8 speed and have under a 2% miss rate. Every .1 speed difference is equivalent at a 2% miss rate to an extra hemorrhage. Which depressingly, is what I told Mik it would take to make it an exceptionally viable build since it shared a lot in common with dual-wielding warriors/shamen, haste and hit... Edit 2: It looks like you would ideally want after talents; 464-465 passive haste rating (assuming slayer 2 piece & 1.4 speed oh), 330 hit rating, and 64 expertise rating. Where the haste is obviously made up with some minor gear and snd/dst edit in explanation: Elofax with his build and gear has, buffed (assuming spicy talbuk), 335 hit rating, 54 expertise rating, and easily over the equivalent 464 haste with snd active. Which is nearly exactly what I said you'd need. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
|
| Alisia edited this message on Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 06:32 | ||
| Flufkin | #306071 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 08:06 | |
|
Chaotic Good in a tiny, pointy package |
quote: Originally posted by Elofax: One other thought from something in Flufkin's post: CP Hemo is more movement-friendly of a build than Ass/Com is, in my experience. Good to know! quote: Originally posted by Elofax: SUMMARY: If you're an experienced rogue looking to try something different and a bit more flexible than Ass/Com, give CP Hemo a try and see what you think. Just make sure you have the proper gear to support it, and be ready to spec back if you find yourself not able to maintain finisher cycles (after all, what good does increased Rupture damage do if you never get to drop a Rupture?). ^ that! I noticed that the build mentioned in the other thread was the one Elo was advocating - who knew that paging Elofax would work so quickly! Good to hear it straight from someone who's tried it. =) Oh and /jealous of your hit rating, Elo. (I hit peak of 352ish, with spicy talbuk, when I was in full T4 with poison vial... but have been fighting with it ever since - damned upgrades! - roll on T6, T5 kinda sucks.) oh... and maybe I'm jealous of that little warglaive thing too.... just maybe. --
~~ the emotional tylopod asks you to stop ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://xkcd.com/386/ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
|
| Alisia | #306076 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 08:16 | |
|
Ready for Winter |
Now, see. I remembered the build originally being deep subtlety and not 0/40/21. At least when the post had originally gone up, I must have been really sleepy. But now I feel unloved! --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
|
| Elofax | #306124 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 12:08 | |
|
Holy Assassin of Elune |
You are loved, Alisia, it's always nice to read your contributions in this forum. =) | |
| Paks | #306125 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 12:09 | |
|
YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
Interestingly enough, I grabbed the spreadsheet and put Leannah into it and found out it thinks I really need to be 11/28/22 with a 5s/5r rotation. I'm going to assume that it's mostly because I'm only sitting at 200 hit right now (not much in the way of raiding gear yet), but default combat swords build according to the spreadsheet drops me WAY down on the DPS, nearly 50 points. Which is fine by me, I like Camouflage too much. :) --
Charter Lead - Maelstrom (Tanks) |
|
| Flufkin | #306137 Wednesday June 11, 2008 at 12:52 | |
|
Chaotic Good in a tiny, pointy package |
quote: Originally posted by Alisia: But now I feel unloved! bah! just keep doing your mad scientist dance. --
~~ the emotional tylopod asks you to stop ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://xkcd.com/386/ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
|