| Inoshiro | #298535 Tuesday May 6, 2008 at 08:45 | |
Member |
I was playing with the DPS spreadsheet tonight and loaded up the default hemo swords (trispec) build, which much to my surprise showed a ~20 DPS/1.2% increase over combat swords for my gear. I also loaded up the sample T6 gear and it reported hemo swords > combat swords for that too, although with a smaller margin (~10 DPS). I also checked in the previous version I'd been using (2.4.0.6) since this is a beta, but the result was similar. I haven't had time lately to keep completely up to date with my theorycraft, so I'm wondering, has anybody seen any maths supporting hemo over combat swords, or better, tried it in raids recently? My instincts and understanding of our talents say this is just a mistake in the spreadsheet's model, but it seems worth investigating. |
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| Alisia | #298538 Tuesday May 6, 2008 at 08:58 | |
Ready for Winter |
Could it be because of the armor penetration? I did a graph once showing the relative damage increase from armor penetration (but I seem to have deleted it) and it showed that armor penetration provides a significant dps increase, without sacrificing hit, until around 800 passive penetration. So it might be the increase from serrated blades. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Flufkin | #298598 Tuesday May 6, 2008 at 14:23 | |
Chaotic Good in a tiny, pointy package |
I believe .. and I'm at work right now, so I can't get too in depth... that the armor penetration becomes a lot more valuable at T6 gear level, surpassing the cookie cutter combat spec. At T4/5 generally the "normal" combat swords spec is the way to go for max dps. Gets a bit trickier at T5ish and up. Of course, it all depends on your individual mix of gear. If you've got a good sheet, go for it and experiment a bit. =) --
   ~~ the emotional tylopod asks you to stop ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://xkcd.com/386/ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Alisia | #298611 Tuesday May 6, 2008 at 15:11 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Flufkin: I believe .. and I'm at work right now, so I can't get too in depth... that the armor penetration becomes a lot more valuable at T6 gear level, surpassing the cookie cutter combat spec. At T4/5 generally the "normal" combat swords spec is the way to go for max dps. Gets a bit trickier at T5ish and up. Yeah it does, a bit. But mainly because the percentage reduction that armor offers is obviously representing a larger amount as the armor gets reduced. The benefit is however capped, on average, at 6200 possible armor penetration on raid bosses (you get around 4010 from raid buffs). Meaning that theoretically you would need to have 2190 passive armor penetration to take most bosses to 0 armor. As you approach 0 armor though you're going to get diminishing returns from the armor reduction. So it's probably wise to aim for the intersection between the armor reduction % and the point at which the increase in damage ceases to be significantly different. Since I would think this is the most effective point for the stat, allowing for other stat allocations in gear choices. This was at around 800 for lower armor bosses and 1200 for higher armored bosses. So, if you have no armor penetration gear, that extra armor penetration from talents will be a significant increase. Especially because you will not have to sacrifice stats for the increase in armor penetration. But... I'm still seeing it behind by about 2-10 dps from a combat swords build with the same gear at t6 levels. But when I looked at t4 and t5 level gear hemo was ahead significantly. The only thing I can think is that as the gear level increases the multipliers, energy regen, dodge prevention and ap/dps increases that deep swords receives overtakes the cheaper energy and passive armor penetration of hemo. Even including the hemo debuff estimate. Either that or the spreadsheet is incredibly off. As I said, I wish WWS was able to load the files correctly... --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Amirite | #298758 Tuesday May 6, 2008 at 20:52 | |
السلام عليكم |
With my ArP gear and serrated blades, I have 2100+ ArP which is just sickening. I never bothered to model it in the spreadsheet though... hmm. I'll check that out at work tomorrow. --
  "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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| Inoshiro | #298782 Tuesday May 6, 2008 at 22:52 | |
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Member |
I think you're right that the ArP is the major factor. Also, playing with the spreadsheet some more, I took a point out of camo and put it into GS, which due to the lack of normalization supposedly adds another 80 DPS :O It would seem these advantages don't necessarily scale all that well with T6/SWP gear, though -- I imported a 6/8 T6 (boots and bracers) rogue, no glaives, and in that level of gear it's pretty much a wash, claiming combat > hemo by 1 DPS. The spreadsheet has GS turned off by default, so I'm not sure whether to trust its model there. And obviously this build won't scale as well with haste and the T6 2 piece bonus, nor with crit since it lacks Lethality, so that seems like roughly 2/3rds of the T6 upgrades that it doesn't use to full advantage. I'll definitely be giving this a try. |
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| Elofax | #298788 Tuesday May 6, 2008 at 23:13 | |
Holy Assassin of Elune |
Actually, if you want to go Hemo, I'd recommend 0/40/21 over trispec. In my experience and calculations, Combat Potency gives back much more energy than 11 points in Assassination, as well as scaling better with more haste/hit gear (i.e. late T6). In practice, even without Sun King procs I was getting 4s/5r cycles consistently the other day (although I'm going back to Ass/Com until I can get some more hit or a faster offhand to boost my CP energy regen just a bit more). | |
| Inoshiro | #298809 Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 00:37 | |
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Member |
I'd always figured 0/40/21 was a better raid spec too, but on the spreadsheet, I get better results from trispec, with or without GS. That's not to say it's true, of course; I'll probably give both a try. | |
| Alisia | #298872 Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 09:06 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Inoshiro: I'd always figured 0/40/21 was a better raid spec too, but on the spreadsheet, I get better results from trispec, with or without GS. That's not to say it's true, of course; I'll probably give both a try. For what it's worth. I see a 31 dps increase on the spreadsheet by switching to the 0/40/21 build. That's without forcing ghostly strike. Where the gain is entirely in the difference between ss and hemo. For combat swords it's estimated that I'd get 1106.3 dps from white damage, 393.79 from ss damage, 117.16 from finishers, and 113.57 from other (poison, sword spec procs). For 0/40/21 it's 1095.19 from white damage, 454.79 from hemo, 107.55 from finishers and 104.69 from other. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Seriel | #298877 Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 09:36 | |
~DESU |
Nowadays it really depends on what your overall raid composition is, with the "ideal" group of raiders, ie. enhancement shaman, arms warrior, survival hunter, so on. I've always thought that the spreadsheets placed a far greater value on armor pen than what is actually witnessed. Well, that and your Illidan RNG. Lawl. |
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| Alisia | #298880 Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 09:51 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Seriel: Nowadays it really depends on what your overall raid composition is, with the "ideal" group of raiders, ie. enhancement shaman, arms warrior, survival hunter, so on. I've always thought that the spreadsheets placed a far greater value on armor pen than what is actually witnessed. Well, that and your Illidan RNG. Lawl. I'm not sure that it does overestimate the value. It seems fairly consistant with what I've observed. But my buffs/mob debuffs in the spreadsheet are adjusted to meet with the average raid composition we have. As for physical attacks (whether or not they're dps) we seem to generally run with 1-2 bm hunters (so 1-2 ravagers), 2-3 rogues, an enh shaman, arms warrior, 2 ferals, prot pally, and a prot warrior. Which would use up the hemo debuff at least. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Inoshiro | #298887 Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 10:13 | |
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Member |
I've heard quite a few people say ArP is widely overrated, but never having had enough to really judge for myself, I'm not sure if it's true, or if it just feels that way because it's a relatively small but consistent boost. FWIW, preliminary testing on one of those immortal servants in Blasted Lands supports the spreadsheet's findings, gaining about 50 DPS completely unbuffed, with some slightly sub-optimal cycles in the hemo test while I was getting used to it. Of course this is hardly indicative compared to a real raid - I'll find out more this weekend. |
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| Diamodd | #298950 Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 13:16 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Alisia: For combat swords it's estimated that I'd get 1106.3 dps from white damage, 393.79 from ss damage, 117.16 from finishers, and 113.57 from other (poison, sword spec procs). For 0/40/21 it's 1095.19 from white damage, 454.79 from hemo, 107.55 from finishers and 104.69 from other. Seems a bit backwards to me that white damage is lower with serrated blades. What value are you all adding for Hemo raid DPS buff? Im assuming you are adding that to your personal totals. "As you approach 0 armor though you're going to get diminishing returns from the armor reduction." Correct me if I'm wrong since it's been awhile since I've looked into armor pen, but I remember the opposite to be true. ArP is worth more as the targets armor approaches 0 as I recall. With anything that pushes it over (or under, however you want to look at it) 0 worth absolutely nothing. I have been known to remember incorrectly though. |
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| Diamodd edited this message on Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 13:44 | ||
| Alaunt | #298987 Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 15:14 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Diamodd: Correct me if I'm wrong since it's been awhile since I've looked into armor pen, but I remember the opposite to be true. ArP is worth more as the targets armor approaches 0 as I recall. With anything that pushes it over (or under, however you want to look at it) 0 worth absolutely nothing. I have been known to remember incorrectly though. If you take a look at the armor graph below from Wowwiki:  It would appear that the change in effective damage reduction per decrease in armor value increases as you approach zero, making armor penetration more valuable as it brings the target armor closer to zero, with the caveat that any armor penetration that would reduce armor < zero is wasted since armor is bounded at the origin. |
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| Balzaar | #298990 Wednesday May 7, 2008 at 15:20 | |
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Mmmm, spring |
quote: Originally posted by Diamodd: What value are you all adding for Hemo raid DPS buff? Im assuming you are adding that to your personal totals. I was actually curious about this also. Does the spreadsheet take into account the benefit Hemo has for the raid? I'm guessing not, but I would be interested on how helpful it is. |
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