| Lin | #297085 Sunday April 27, 2008 at 00:14 | |
Member |
OK following up on the success of my last question here in these forums, now I have some issues with threat and want to ask for some advice and help. I was tanking in ZA for the first time, and in some situations I was having problems holding aggro. The basic setup is myself as OT, a warrior MT, and of course lots of dps and healys. I was asked to judge wisdom on all the mobs, which I did as best as I could (on trash it was a pain), but on bosses not so bad. Some of the fights went really well, but some didnt. Our attempts on Hex Lord Malacrass are an example of things not working...so let me explain what happened and then ask, what should I have done differently? Our MT was tanking the Hex Lord himself, I was the one on the adds, tanking and breaking CC one at a time. We opened the pull with the warrior and myself running in and the CCers sheeping, banishing, and fearing. I grabbed the first kill target (the skull, etc), and Id judge Righteousness on it to get initial aggro. Then Id spam Holy Shield, judge another righteousness when it came up again, and drop wisdom on it third. If I was able to consecrate (without breaking CC on other things) I would. Though this happened relatively rarely because the sheep was wandering around in the area I was tanking. I never got a chance to use Avengers Shield, on these pulls (or most of the run, either) because on a few early pulls the sheep would hit first and then my avengers would (apparently?) break it, and I was reminded to be careful not to break CC on the pulls. Anyway, I was having a really tough time holding aggro after the above sequence of events, on 2 of the four attempts we put in on the Hex Lord. Two other attempts went well, from my own tanking point of view, I held aggro and there were no of-tanking issues. But on the two bad attempts, DPS would jump in, Id lose aggro, Id taunt off, then taunt would be on cooldown and someone else would pull aggro off me. Our dps warrior might (inadvertantly) pull aggro, and the heals would start on them, and pretty soon I was sitting there with no mana and taunt on cooldown half the time, and the dps (correctly) complaining I was generating no threat. This was my first time tanking in ZA and, in fact, I still dont even have a lot of experience in raid tanking in general. My questions are: 1) I would have greatly preferred to be able to judge crusader on my own tanking targets. I have improved crusader so thats 3% crit for me (and everyone else) but more importantly, its +219 holy damage increase (or whatever the number is) would have generated substantial extra threat for me. Should I have told the rest of the raid that I shouldnt be judging wisdom, but crusader for my threat? (we had 3 pallies total). Being new to ZA (and pally tanking in general) I just agreed to be putting up wisdom on every target there was. 2) Should I have told the raid that we should pull using avengers shield whenever possible, and that CCers should CC and our MT taunt his target off me, after I throw my Captain America move? Rather than CCing first, and me then running up and judging righteousness? 3) Should I have tried to (as often as possible) use Avengers Shield to break CC and start tanking, rather than judging righteousness? Generally, my experience on the Malacrass fight today was a frustrating one, I would have such a tenuous hold on aggro from the get go and if I lost it, I really seemed to have almost no chance to regain it. Without aggro I get no heals and then I run out of mana eventually, and I can only taunt once every 15 seconds. Was this mostly my fault? Mostly dps fault for pulling aggro early? A basic problem with the way we were doing the pulls? Etc. What do you guys think about what I should be doing in that situation? --Linthor (and Linarl/Linaster) |
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| Lin edited this message on Sunday April 27, 2008 at 21:17 | ||
| Arkhain | #297097 Sunday April 27, 2008 at 01:10 | |
this is it for a winner! |
1) Yes. Your raid brings mana pots, not shrouding pots, for a reason. If threat is an issue, you should judge Crusader. You can switch to Wis when raid mana looks low, or when you've already got a steady threat lead. 2) Yes. Pull with the shield, your MT and CCers can pick up their targets. Initial aggro on you will keep the CCers and healers from getting splattered when CC breaks. 3) Yes. Avenger's Shield doesn't break CC unless it's directly targeted. If you throw your shield and mage sheeps right as it hits, the mage should resheep. |
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| StormMaster | #297098 Sunday April 27, 2008 at 01:23 | |
AP Tank Lead - Dwarven Bomb Squad |
Also, make sure you work with your DPSers and position things so that you can lay a consecrate down. Even for single targets, it's a huge chunk of your threat, and it's very important (especially in a DPS race) to make sure you've got all your tools working for you.
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Artalis / Khandron - 140 levels of tanking goodness! "All your aggro are belong to US!" |
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| Lin | #297105 Sunday April 27, 2008 at 07:34 | |
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Member |
Seems a lot of this was caused by me not speaking out strongly enough about what I needed in order to tank effectively as a pally. Part of the issue too I think was, Im in T4/T5/Badge gear and most of the raid was in T5/T6. And re. Avengers Shield...I saw it break CC a few times myself. Does this mean the sheep was cast while the shield was in transit? So the Avengers picked its targets at the time of cast, but then one of those targets got sheepd before it hit? Im sure I didnt directly target the sheep (moon). |
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| Toragan | #297110 Sunday April 27, 2008 at 08:43 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
First off you don't need to judge wisdom unless your on a boss. Wisdom on trash is pointless as it dies to fast and the combat itself doesn't take that long. They can just drink afterward.=P Secondly your need to frontload agro is far more important than getting wisdom up first when your tanking the first target on a pull. Even if it's a boss. You can judge it after you got a good hold on the thing. If you have sometime on a target (say 2nd or 3rd on the kill order) then it doesn't matter. On any focus fire target that will be going down fast it's a waste of time to put up wisdom anyway. Judge righteousness at first over crusader even if your worried about them stripping it off you fast. Avenger's shield WILL break CC and in some cases that can be a very very bad thing to break an initial CC like that. If your going to make a habit of using it make sure you talk with your raid about it and work things out with them. Especially the CC. Personally my use of it in raiding tends to be very situational as getting a good chuck of initial agro on multiple targets can be very bad for your health if things go wrong. Without AS all a warrior/druid has to do to get agro on their target is just hit it on a pull. If you use it they have to taunt to get it off you and if it's resisted (or worse yet immune) for whatever reason you'll likely be tanking their mob too. It sounds like you were under the gear level of the raid and that can make it hard on you when your not tanking undead or demons. My advice to you if it continues to be an issue is to find ways to up your spell damage. Even a 50ish increase is huge for us.=) Oh and slap your raid around till they give you a few seconds before opening up.=P --
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| Toragan edited this message on Sunday April 27, 2008 at 08:57 | ||
| Paks | #297133 Sunday April 27, 2008 at 16:55 | |
YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
Couple of things I noticed. 1. Since 2.4, AS won't bounce to already-sheeped/sapped/whatever targets. It's possible - perhaps even probable - that a sheep that lands mid-cast will still get bounced to. 2. AS hasn't had a minimum range for a while now. If I think I can get away with it (i.e., a not-too-hard-hitting boss) I usually will shield-toss mid-fight on the same target. 3. That being said, do your damnedest to position where you can drop a consecrate. Even at beginning KZ levels, that's a ton and a half of threat. When I first started tanking, with 200ish damage, I was still putting out about 180ish TPS from Consecrate alone. --
Charter Lead - Maelstrom (Tanks)  |
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| Lin | #297172 Sunday April 27, 2008 at 22:01 | |
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Member |
Thanks for all the input everyone much appreciated. Sounds like: -- use avengers shield on pulls more (where it makes sense) -- use avengers shield as part of my normal spell rotation while tanking single mobs, when I need more frontloaded threat -- use consecrate more, and work things out with dps/CC so I can do that -- judge crusader when I need to for tanking threat, rather than what raid dps wants for their purposes (light, wisdom, etc). |
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| StormMaster | #297174 Sunday April 27, 2008 at 22:12 | |
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AP Tank Lead - Dwarven Bomb Squad |
The top two jobs of a tank are a) staying alive, and b) holding aggro. Regenerating mana for the raid or pretty much anything else are secondary to those two tasks :) That being said, do be careful about using Avengers for bonus aggro, while you are casting, you have no avoidance, and can be crushed, so be careful with the timing. Avengers is also a mana hog, especially if you're only generating aggro on a single target with it, so make sure that your regular rotation can be sustained after it and balance the need for more burst threat with overall threat production. Sounds like you've got your head in the right place though, keep at it, and it'll be clear, and then be second nature soon enough! --
Artalis / Khandron - 140 levels of tanking goodness! "All your aggro are belong to US!" |
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| Eitan | #297260 Monday April 28, 2008 at 12:35 | |
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I think most have covered it well but I'll add on the AS thing, your mages are doing something wrong. AS doesn't break sheep unless you're targeting a sheeped mob BUT that shouldn't matter. AS should hit first then sheep in most cases. The daze component of AS will give the mage plenty of time to sheep since the mob won't be moving fast and the threat component means the mob won't attack the mage if sheep breaks. With very few exceptions that should be the order, not the other way around. As for judging wisdom for the raid, as others noted it's completely secondary and is only your responsibility if it doesn't interfere with you tanking. Your job as tank is tanking. Raid buffs, healing, dancing, singing, making rude gestures, etc., are all secondary no matter how much whining there is. If they want a host of blessings maintained they should bring a ret paladin. That's what they're for. |
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| Paks | #297296 Monday April 28, 2008 at 16:01 | |
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YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
For the record, that shouldn't be much of an issue if you're in the Badge BP from 2.3 and are using a caster sword. Wisdom is my default judgement - I almost never use anything else. And I have very little in the way of threat issues. If I couldn't use Consecrate, I *might* judge it. But I've also trained my DPSers to wait for a consecrate before they open up. It almost sounds like you're either running without RF up (it happens, unfortunately frequently in my case) or you've accidentally got a downranked SoR on your bars, or otherwise your DPS are opening up FAR too early. EDIT: And as my mage can attest, you're not exactly easy to pull threat off of in most situations (That'd be Jillara). If in doubt, go with the highest threat combos you can manage. Also, as far as shield-tossing goes, don't make it a normal part of your rotations. I usually reserve it for things like Phase 1 Prince where I *need* as large a threat buffer as possible so my DPS doesn't have to hold back, but I'm not likely to take a massive beating in the second or so I'm casting. Also, as far as I'm aware, you still have Dodge available, just not Parry/Block. --
Charter Lead - Maelstrom (Tanks) |
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| Toragan | #297609 Wednesday April 30, 2008 at 02:25 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by Paks: 1. Since 2.4, AS won't bounce to already-sheeped/sapped/whatever targets. It's possible - perhaps even probable - that a sheep that lands mid-cast will still get bounced to. Now this is something I didn't know. I've long since gotten in the habit of avoiding it in situations where there's vital CC present because it always did break it. That and I haven't been playing much at all for awhile now other than raiding. So I never had occasion to notice the change. Nice to know they fixed it. --
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| Adnar | #297635 Wednesday April 30, 2008 at 08:15 | |
Yes! Uther loves me! (not you) |
Most of what I wanted to post has been stated, but I do have 3 suggestions. 1) Specifically on the Hex Lord fight - breaking CC is for the most part discouraged. If it got sheeped, banished, seduced, or slept, it should be reapplied as much as possible so you can get dps on Hexy. A good rule of thumb is whatever adds you have to deal with should be killed or neutralized by the 1st spirit bolt. Figure out if it is better for you to shield certain adds that are going to be sheeped so they go to you if and when they break or if you want them to go to the sheeping mage or healer. That will determine if you should shield and then sheep or sheep and then shield. I usually shield, then sheep on this fight and lay off the conc when sheep is going to break. After they run to me I will move so I can continue conc if needed. Everyone should have kings to live through spirit bolts. They need to me mindful of threat. Last point on HL sadly is that I usually swap out for my enhancement shammy anyway as the added DPS and interrupt is more useful on this fight than a prot pally. 2) AS - I am very specific about what I am going to shield before a pull and willing to explain why if needed. Also, I find a little bit of joy when I am determining what mob I am going to shield and where the bounces are going to hit. I really like it when I realize that I need to shield a mob next to my 1st target or 2 over so I can get better aggro on specific mobs in addition to my main target. 3) Threat - I determine what judgement I am going to use and the raid will have to adjust. My default is wisdom, but if I need extra threat then crusader goes up and I switch it when I get ample threat. On trash and adds switch out some stam/def rings for spelldmg ones. The added threat will help and you don't need to be uncrushable on anything other than a boss. ** I went from 2 suggestions to 3** --
The status is NOT quo. The world is a mess and I just need to rule it. http://silverhandwowgeek.blogspot.com/ |
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| Adnar edited this message on Wednesday April 30, 2008 at 09:00 | ||
| Gyrik | #297663 Wednesday April 30, 2008 at 11:03 | |
"Yub yub, Commander." WL Tank Lead |
Most of the important stuff has already been said. It sounds like your CCers need to be a bit more on the ball to me =P Important CC (like Hex Lord adds) should be reapplied constantly at the start until it holds; hell, the mages should WANT you to snag aggro on sheep targets, so when they break, they don't mulch the squishies. Second general point is that paladins will always, ALWAYS suffer in an OT spot. We can do it, sure, but because our mana return is so heavily dependent on damage dealt to us, an OT spot can significantly reduce that mana return and hence possible threat. Final note: If for some reason I cannot consecrate (it happens), I use Wings as a stop gap; hit it, re-apply HS, smack the mob with a nice JoRighteousness, and keep SoR running/Exo if possible. It should give you the threat boost you need to either see the mob dead, or move it to where you can CC. More final note: Do you have the badge libram that increases SoR damage? Especially if you're fighting adds and don't have to worry about crushing blows, that amount of threat increase on SoR is rather large, to the point where I've stopped using SoV on trash. SoR + the libram is just better. --
 Dazhbog - Armory Gyrik - Armory The birth of the Argent Crusade - credit to Invisusira of Smolderthorn |
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| Arkhain | #297771 Wednesday April 30, 2008 at 18:12 | |
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this is it for a winner! |
Breaking CC is bad, but losing aggro is worse. Be careful with Consecrates, but break what you need to keep your threat up. If your shield breaks a sheep, it's the mage's duty to resheep. Obviously, there's exceptions with sap and traps, but use your judgement -- literally and figuratively. | |