| Lin | #296484 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 12:46 | |
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Ive read at least three different things about paladin crushability on various websites and boards etc. From what I can tell, Im not uncrushable yet. Last night I tanked both Gruul and Mags, and both of those guys were rarely hitting me for what seemed like a quite a lot. Was it just bad luck, or am I really still crushable? Heres my stats, as listed on the character tab, unbuffed but with Holy Shield up: Defense: 528 (increases chance to dodge, block and parry by 7.12%) Dodge: 23.9% Parry: 17.12% Block 53.79% Its mostly badge gear and justicar, so my spell damage is decently strong (469), I have 49 spell hit (and another +3% from talents), 16.4K armor, and 13.6K health. You can armory me too, im the only Linthor on Silver Hand. I know its better to give stats fully buffed, but Im not fully buffed this morning. Next raid Ill record stats, I know I was getting up to 18.1K health fully buffed, other than that I dont know -- I should have written down dodge/block/parry fully buffed. Thats probably what I need to do, before I can find out if I'm uncrushable by Mags and Gruul? I read that it takes more dodge rating to get 1% dodge as a pally, than block rating to get 1% block. My sense is, I have too much dodge, and should work on more block. Any help appreciated :) -Linthor (and Linaster/Linarl) |
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| Lenevi | #296490 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 13:04 | |
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Here is a easy way to tell. /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1) /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance() + GetParryChance() +5+(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL) + 20)*0.04,1,0.5,0) just make sure you have holy shield up. |
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| Dariar | #296491 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 13:06 | |
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This thread over on elitistjerks should have all the info you need: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t21425-paladin_protection/ |
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| Lin | #296495 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 13:38 | |
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Thanks, thats a good thread. Seems more trustworthy than some of the other stuff out there. The script puts me at 107.1% total avoidance (need 102.5%) so it looks like im uncrushable indeed. Probably I need to focus on stamina, and just making sure Holy Shield is up all the time. Ill rethink my tanking macros. Maybe thats what happened on Gruul, in tight situations when a lot is going on, easy to be 2 seconds late getting HS up, and that could mean a crushing blow. |
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| Toragan | #296497 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 13:46 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
Yeah if I'm fighting a crush boss I pretty just spam HS when it's about to come up to make sure it stays up because it's so vital.
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| StormMaster | #296499 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 13:55 | |
AP Tank Lead - Dwarven Bomb Squad |
For a boss where spike death from a crush is a high likelihood, it's imperative that you don't do anything that would put you on GCD when your holy shield is about to come back up. Despite many requests for a slight overlap on duration to cooldown, Blizzard (in their 'infinite' wisdom) have decided that leaving pally tanks somewhat to the mercy of the lag gods is the chosen way. Even with perfect timing, there's still a small chance in the window of holy shield dropping and the button press being trasnmitted, that a crush can slip through. Rare, but possible. Since there's no way to eliminate that gap, it falls to us to make sure it's as small as humanly possible (which is well within performance parameters :) As to uncrushability, 102.4% is the target goal for bosses, and it should be noted, that unless you're planning on swapping out the block libram for a threat libram, you generally want to try and stay as close to 102.4% as possible. Due to the way the combat table works, anything above 102.4% results in wasted itemization points, normally straight out of block. Those points can (generally) be more effective if switched to armor or stamina (example, stam to bracers instead of def, hp to chest instead of def, gem choices, etc.) I like to make sure that I'm 102.4% self buffed, before factoring in kings/mark, so that on the off chance I die during a fight and get BR'd, I'm uncrushable from the gate, rather then relying on quick k-marts to be fully operable (and this has saved us on Vashj once) Also, as you continue to upgrade and work into higher tiers of content, it definetly pays to start working on shifting your avoidance totals from block rating to more of the 100% avoidance stats (dodge/parry/miss) Block rating is a great stat to reach uncrushable in the first place, but as you continue to raise yor armor and health to keep your effective health high enough to avoid spike death, increasing your pure avoidance stats will help lower your overall damage intake, and give you less occurences of hit chains. Just something to note for the future ;) Being over the uncrushable mark is a good place to be though, it means you've got room to reorganize your gems and enchants, and can likely sqeeze a few hundred more armor or stamina out, always a nice boost! --
Artalis / Khandron - 140 levels of tanking goodness! "All your aggro are belong to US!" |
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| Arkhain | #296523 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 15:53 | |
this is it for a winner! |
Gruul will force Holy Shield lapses with his silence effect, will often crush you during. In addition, by the third Growth, he's already hitting you as hard as his crushing blows at the start and it only gets worse. If you're curious where the last points come from despite blockdodgeparry not adding up, it's miss chance. Your defense adds to it the same way it does block-dodge-parry, and you have a base 5% chance to be missed by most bosses. |
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| Eitan | #296533 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 16:14 | |
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In addition to the stupid silence and lag making you crushable there's repositioning gruul himself that can open you up to crushes if you're far enough into his hit box that the game decides you're facing the wrong way. Ultimately there's no such thing as uncrushable. What there is is massive reductions in the liklihood of being crushed. Have to settle for that :) |
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| Toragan | #296539 Wednesday April 23, 2008 at 16:24 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
Duel wielding crushers like the Prince can also push HS off before the cooldown comes up. Another good reason to replace block with pure avoidance once you get the chance.
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| Paks | #296615 Thursday April 24, 2008 at 00:53 | |
YOU'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME FRUIT VENDOR! |
Also, you're at the point now where you need to look at an upgrade and remember that Block Rating is virtually useless to you, but Block Value isn't. There's a bit of debate on this subject, mostly because some folks feel that it's not worth getting since it doesn't give us any threat benefits. I'm of the other side of things; since we HAVE to block as a portion of our threat generation, the less damage taken on a block, the better off we are. But in general, "because it has more Block Rating" is a great way to waste points and badges when looking at an upgrade if you're already uncrushable. Also, "no such thing as uncrushable" is a touch misleading. There are things that can MAKE you crushable, but if you've got your back to a wall and are tanking a boss while standing in place, you should not take a single crush. The math of the situation means it's impossible barring lag preventing Holy Shield from being up, thrash attacks burning through it's charges, and standing so the boss isn't in your front arc. If all those are not the case, you cannot be crushed. --
Charter Lead - Maelstrom (Tanks)  |
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| Toragan | #296620 Thursday April 24, 2008 at 02:09 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
Oh you can be crushed if a boss pushes holy shield off before your cooldown comes up. Granted not many can but it can happen. It's not as bad for us as it is for warriors however.
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| Arkhain | #296626 Thursday April 24, 2008 at 07:55 | |
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this is it for a winner! |
If Prince is actually crushing you through 10 charges of Holy Shield, you need more avoidance. Find another 11% and you'll be passively immune to his crushing blows, anyways. | |
| Fenrys | #296634 Thursday April 24, 2008 at 09:07 | |
Leather Tnak |
Looking at all this math, etc. druid tanking seems so simple. | |
| Alaunt | #296639 Thursday April 24, 2008 at 09:37 | |
Member |
Aye, druid tanking is simple in some ways. Although I understand Blizzard using dodge as an avoidance for druids, popping trinkets and having 70% dodge in bearform seems ludicrous at best. What am I doing? tumbling around in front of the boss, turning cartwheels and doing somersaults?!? Still druids can make some use of resilience, which compared to defense for most tanks is all but useless. Edit: sorry for the derail, I know this is the paladin forum but my little Ehlenia is only ~lvl 35 so I don't pretend to know paladin mechanics >_> |
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| Toragan | #296669 Thursday April 24, 2008 at 12:02 | |
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The not so serious paladin |
quote: Originally posted by Arkhain: If Prince is actually crushing you through 10 charges of Holy Shield, you need more avoidance. Find another 11% and you'll be passively immune to his crushing blows, anyways. Not sure if your directing this at me or not. I've tanked him many times already and with HS up I am already uncrushable. However SBR is your biggest form of mitigation. Nearly doubling (if not more) the other 2 with HS up. That being said it's quite possible for the Prince to push those 8 charges off before 10 seconds are up. It's not common by far but it's happened to me before. --
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