| Zaddy | #295373 Wednesday April 16, 2008 at 20:32 | |
Heal Sauce and Assplosions |
First off, I want to thank all of you who responded. I like to see the healthy discussion ;) From what I've seen, yah, the flashes are about hitting the meters, I think. Not always, I think some might think that's the best way to heal. I'll admit, I keep my meters up too, but it's mostly to check myself against...myself. There are certain levels of performance I expect from myself with respect to my renew's, and my overheal. What I find to be really kind of sad, is that flash heal isn't the way to 'pad' the numbers, if that's what you're going for, even on, or perhaps especially on trash. Before the pull, I toss a prayer of mending on a tank (my focus if i'm supposed to be an MT healer). After the pull starts, I pretty much start with a renew on every tank that's going to be taking damage and then go about the rest of my healing, with an emphasis on keeping renews up on the people that have aggro and spew PoM every time the cooldown's up. In the ideal world I seldom have to use flash. I tend to use CoH and Prayer of Healing when appropriate to help control splash damage. What's this result in? Well, typically, my numbers are very good, with a pretty low overheal. My biggest overheal spells tend to be Greater Heal (by a lot) and Prayer of Mending. The nice thing about using renew the way I do is it stabilizes healing for everyone else, largely isn't wasted in overheal, stabilizes healing for everyone else, isn't a huge mana hit, and it stabilizes healing for everyone else. See the theme? My whole approach to healing as a priest is to stabilize healing for everyone else. Can I land the big healing bomb? Sure, but it's not always appropriate. I'd love to see more renews from priests. Stacked renews are hard not to notice. Renews ticking also makes it more likely you can exit the 5 second rule and really regen some mana. My big concerns with my renew approach, is aggro and my squishy self :P 3+ renews ticking at 800 each is a lot of healing aggro, especially when you're healing with other spells on top of that. Judicious use of fade helps me avoid the aggro for the most part, or at least duck it when I get it, hopefully avoiding death. (I'm getting better at that too) Maybe I should start working on a guide or something (if I do...please peer review it. There's still a lot I don't know and am learning about the class). --
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| KeeRissa | #295380 Wednesday April 16, 2008 at 21:10 | |
Burn or Heal? |
quote: Originally posted by Dae: Coming from a dps priest perspective, I've gotten knocked quite a few times for being *cough* somewhat reckless with my nukes. I'm specced to be able to Mind Blast (a fairly inefficient spell) as often as possible in my spell cycle, and I blast my MB/Death cooldowns as often as they're up, which results in a higher rate of mana consumption than more conservative shadow priests... but also a comparatively high damage output. I figure, if I've got the mana and I know I can keep going for the duration of the fight, I should use it. Not to derail the thread but this is exactly how you SHOULD play a shadow priest. Only reason ever to not use SW:D when the CD is up is if you're going to die and you're not getting any incoming heals (I love the healers in my raids!). Our role in mana "efficiency" isn't for ourselves but for our groups by keeping VT always ticking. As a shadow priest, my "priority list" is: VT VE (if aggro is NOT an issue) SW:P SW:D MB MF I then just use MF only if MB and SW:D are on CD and if all of my dots are already tick tick ticking away. |
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| Xeonio | #295399 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 02:01 | |
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Charter Lead: Relentless |
I usually don't look at other healers WWS. It seems like to many variables I have to look at. Things like what other types of healers were there, was it an even mix of them or heavily slanted towards priests, was it a boss fight or trash... For instance I'm more reckless with my mana on farm status trash because I'm not worried about going oom before it happens. Granted I don't just spam flash heal but I use it more then I would on a boss fight. On a boss fight I'm more likely to be healing the melee group so I endup with a lot of COH spam (tidewalker, lurker, void reaver, etc.). If not having to heal melee then I'm using one of my 3 GHeals (1, 4, or 7). I used to use heal rank 4 before I got two pieces of tier 5 but once you get it switch over to GHeal 1 and it makes up for it NP. Prayer of mending is also not only a neat spell but its great for boosting your MTs aggro. When it jumps off of you the healing aggro is for the person it jumps off of. So when it jumps off your MT he gets the aggro from the heal. Granted its not a huge bonus but I believe its one threat / pt of heal. If you have 5 priests making sure to recast it everytime it pops then your adding huge chunks of threat to your MT that he doesn't even have to work for! I will definitely agree though that if all you do is flash heal then you should reroll pally. Thats how they were made. We actually just recently had someone do that and they are doing magnificant and loving it. We usually find ourselves w/o pally or druid healers and all the priests keeping renews up does WONDERS for the MT. More people should make sure they keep it up *nod*. Renew also only gives you aggro for dmg that is actually healed with it. So if you have a tick of renew only hit for 200 of 800 then you only get aggro for a 200pt heal. A lot of times a tank will be top'd off and your renew won't tick for anything substantial. Throwing around renews isn't a bad thing and personally I wouldn't worry about the threat from it. --
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| Jerilynn | #295422 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 07:18 | |
IDK my BFF Dulin? |
quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: My big concerns with my renew approach, is aggro and my squishy self :P 3+ renews ticking at 800 each is a lot of healing aggro, especially when you're healing with other spells on top of that. Judicious use of fade helps me avoid the aggro for the most part, or at least duck it when I get it, hopefully avoiding death. (I'm getting better at that too) Hrm, I've never had a problem pulling aggro with renew, in raids... (had it happen in 5 mans though, but I think that was because it was a PUG and the tank stunk) I think if you throw PoM, wait for the tank to get a hit in, then cast renew, you're safe. --
  Photography: My Anti-WoW: http://www.jennyzandstra.com Jerilynn - Healer Supreme Dhaliah - Wannabe Tank and Tinkerer Nhaliah - Dhaliah's Sister, MIA |
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| Guthammer | #295423 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 07:24 | |
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Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
quote: Originally posted by Xeonio: Granted its not a huge bonus but I believe its one threat / pt of heal. Since its the tank's agro, I would assume the tanks agro modifiers apply. So for warriors its 130% in defensive, and 145% with defiance. I am wondering if I under used flash heal in MgT. We just got hammered by the last pull. (I am thinking not, there was just too much incoming damage.) --
4 70s and counting |
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| Maegrette | #295424 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 07:38 | |
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Makes the rockin' world go round |
In further praise of Renew, extra ticks not only don't generate threat, they don't even show up in the combat log and thus aren't counted by WWS/Recount/etc. This is why druids tend to have the lowest overheal recorded of all the healers in a raid. So if the other benefits of Renew don't convince people to use it, consider it free e-peen inflation. ;-) PoM, on the other hand, gets credited to the person it healed. If there's more than one priest in the raid, it's impossible to tell from the logs who was using it. But if the main tank shows as having something like 5% or 7% of total healing done, you know someone was doing their job. I throw PoM like it's going out of style. It is a freaking amazing spell and the number one reason I love being a priest. - A pre-heal that can be cast before the fight even starts. - Zero threat to the healer, even when cast right after a face-pull. - Helps the tank build threat. - Instant cast, so useful as an "oh shit" heal. Let a PoM fly first, and you have a little more time to get that GH off. - Helps take care of other raid members who are taking damage while you focus on the tank. - If it bounces multiple times, it's incredibly mana efficient. And as an extra bonus, it looks cool! --
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| Zaddy | #295426 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 07:49 | |
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Heal Sauce and Assplosions |
quote: Originally posted by Dahlily: quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: My big concerns with my renew approach, is aggro and my squishy self :P 3+ renews ticking at 800 each is a lot of healing aggro, especially when you're healing with other spells on top of that. Judicious use of fade helps me avoid the aggro for the most part, or at least duck it when I get it, hopefully avoiding death. (I'm getting better at that too) Hrm, I've never had a problem pulling aggro with renew, in raids... (had it happen in 5 mans though, but I think that was because it was a PUG and the tank stunk) I think if you throw PoM, wait for the tank to get a hit in, then cast renew, you're safe. Well, it's not /just/ renew. It's renew on top of the other healing. I've found (and I might be wrong) that the way that I use renew, they tend to be nearly fully used. Also, speaking of PoM and no aggro to priests, I'm NOT real sure that's true. I know everyone says it is, but I have definitely seen times where the only thing that I've thrown is PoM on the tank, and a boss..say Nightbane beelines for me and I grow wings. With Nightbane in particular, I'm very careful not to even have a renew up on the tank, because THAT definitely draws his attention. I've seen it with some other things too, but it was reproducible with Nightbane. --
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| Tenatia | #295427 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 07:57 | |
Warlock/Caster Lead Emeritus |
quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: Also, speaking of PoM and no aggro to priests, I'm NOT real sure that's true. I know everyone says it is, but I have definitely seen times where the only thing that I've thrown is PoM on the tank, and a boss..say Nightbane beelines for me and I grow wings. With Nightbane in particular, I'm very careful not to even have a renew up on the tank, because THAT definitely draws his attention. I've seen it with some other things too, but it was reproducible with Nightbane. It is considered a buff. It would draw the same aggro as if you simply cast divine spirit on the tank. Even though no healing takes places, if the tank hasn't made contact with the mob, and you buff the tank (or anyone really), you jump to the top of the aggro table. If you hit the tank with PoM before the tank is in combat (or an initial pull) or specifically for Nightbane before he lands then the buff isn't in the aggro table. At least that's been my experience and understanding, when it comes to wipes by buff. Oh those nights with Vael ...the memories:) --
Grimjim Stonebreaker, Dwarf, 70 Protection Warrior, Health: 13.6k, Armour:16k, Defense: ~495 // Attuned for: Ony/MC/BWL/Kara Tenatia Saendar, Human, 70 Demonology Warlock // Attuned for: Ony/MC/BWL/Naxx/Kara Pietro Loyallar, Human, 70 Priest // Attuned for: Ony/MC/BWL/Kara Theraint Griffinforge, Dwarf, 65 Paladin // Attuned for: Ony/MC/BWL |
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| Maegrette | #295428 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 08:00 | |
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Makes the rockin' world go round |
In well over a year with that spell, casting it recklessly before and during pulls, I have never once drawn aggro with it. That's not to say it can't happen I guess. :-) (Nightbane has a particular fondness for priestflesh. I'm convinced priests get a special invisible threat buff in that encounter.) --
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| Tenatia | #295429 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 08:41 | |
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Warlock/Caster Lead Emeritus |
quote: Originally posted by Maegrette: (Nightbane has a particular fondness for priestflesh. I'm convinced priests get a special invisible threat buff in that encounter.) Yep, not that I healed on Nightbane, but I've seen a steady stream of healer death on him repeatedly. That was when I was playing my tank. Ultimately my inability to successfully tank the bastard just once, ended my raiding career. --
Grimjim Stonebreaker, Dwarf, 70 Protection Warrior, Health: 13.6k, Armour:16k, Defense: ~495 // Attuned for: Ony/MC/BWL/Kara Tenatia Saendar, Human, 70 Demonology Warlock // Attuned for: Ony/MC/BWL/Naxx/Kara Pietro Loyallar, Human, 70 Priest // Attuned for: Ony/MC/BWL/Kara Theraint Griffinforge, Dwarf, 65 Paladin // Attuned for: Ony/MC/BWL |
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| Zaddy | #295431 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 09:06 | |
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Heal Sauce and Assplosions |
quote: Originally posted by Tenatia: quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: Also, speaking of PoM and no aggro to priests, I'm NOT real sure that's true. I know everyone says it is, but I have definitely seen times where the only thing that I've thrown is PoM on the tank, and a boss..say Nightbane beelines for me and I grow wings. With Nightbane in particular, I'm very careful not to even have a renew up on the tank, because THAT definitely draws his attention. I've seen it with some other things too, but it was reproducible with Nightbane. It is considered a buff. It would draw the same aggro as if you simply cast divine spirit on the tank. Even though no healing takes places, if the tank hasn't made contact with the mob, and you buff the tank (or anyone really), you jump to the top of the aggro table. If you hit the tank with PoM before the tank is in combat (or an initial pull) or specifically for Nightbane before he lands then the buff isn't in the aggro table. At least that's been my experience and understanding, when it comes to wipes by buff. Oh those nights with Vael ...the memories:) Okay, this would make some sense. I hadn't thought about it from that angle, but I've seen other buffs affect my aggro. (pull..Oh shit we need Fort!) --
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| Thrilas | #295544 Thursday April 17, 2008 at 18:56 | |
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Member |
Yeah any type of buff cause some amount of threat. Its not much but if the tank has not contacted the mob yet you are still higher then him. One thing that the Elitist Jerks sites says is a good strat is to put a shield and PoM on the tank before the pull. It take that 1st hit from the boss and lets the tank build some more threat before you need your heal to hit him. I know when I started raid healing on my preist it was Kara and my preist was a little undergeared (and I was a nub) I fell into the habit of Flash heals and renew only. So maybe some people have just never really thought about it too much. And im not saying thats the wrong way to heal, because ultimately if you keep the tank/raid alive, then you did your job. --
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| Sowien | #296241 Tuesday April 22, 2008 at 11:13 | |
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Member |
quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: Okay, so I have been watching other priests in raids that I have attended for a while now. I have determined that my approach to healing seems to be very different than most. The first difference I see is the one that puzzles me most. A lot of priests top heal tends to be flash heal. This seems especially true on trash, but I have seen it on bosses too. For trash this may seem to be less important because the encounters are shorter anfls the priest is not as likely to run out of mana. But the way I see it, mana is not the primary concern on trash pulls. It is the healing aggro that you can generate. One or two hits from an errant melée mo. And a priest tends to turn into an angel (especially if you have low stamina like my priest does in herain healing set). Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that there is not a place for flash heal. Quite to the contrary, I thinkbthere are absolutely places to use it and I do. But seldom do I use flash heal in tanks. I tend to use it ok leather and cloth wearers who would not live long enough for the big heal to get off. I guess that what I am really trying to get at here is why do mavy priests seem to use flash heal as their primary staple heal? Is there something that I am missing? Besides that, I think that we could use some discussion here about healing techniques in general. We are, after all, the most versatile of the healing classes when it comes to healing tools. And at the risk of sounding pretentious, I feel that priests are the best healing class, not because we are the best in capability at any one thing, but because we are second best at all of the healing aspects (single target, HoTs, and AoE). Well more than that I have fun as a healing priest. My apologies for errors in this post. I am typing it on my phone. EDIT: Fixed some typos I won't attribute to malice (Flash spam>>meter wanking) for what can be attributed to unknowingness (flash spam>> WTF else do I cast?) I find not so experienced priests use it as a "I don't really know the fight yet and this seems to keep my targets up for now" spell. On Solarian though if you are missile healing you just add it in your macro and spam it. Here is something I once sent to a lead when asked about healers, I think a lot of flash spam priests need to learn this. --"For me all my healing comes from one realization. I am the most versatile healer in wow atm; I can raid heal or MT heal equally well and my survivability, if on my toes? is really good. -I have a long cast heal for 5.5k (crit 8-10k), -I have a short cast heal for 2.5k (crit 3.5-4k), -I have a short cast heal that heals myself and my target for 2-2.5k (crit 3.5k) -I have an instant cast heal that is entirely target aggro for 2k'ish and short cd, -I have an instant, no cd, cheap, everyone in group radially for 18.5yds heal for 1k (crit 1.6k) -I have a long cast heal for everyone in group for 40 something odd yards to heal 3k (crit 3.7-4k) -I have a no cd HoT that ticks for 770unb and 800-somethin buf that I don't have to keep as much track of as rolling Lifebloom. -Everytime my heal crits the target gets 25% armour. -I also can enter clearcasting... WOW and it even procs a lot! -If I so choose I can set up a healing object away from me on some other side of the room and let people heal themselves at their leisure. -If I so choose I can heal for 15 seconds after I die... 15 seconds of CoH!!! Toward the end when healer mana is low and dps needs help? Go ahead... kill me again, BR me... and kill me again... seriously."-- Open ye olde spell book and actually have a good look at your spells. Good training for those who flash spam is to take off your epic gear, throw on some blues, take off flash heal from your bar and go to Shattered Halls a few runs. Or take off your flash button and go do some arena or pvp. You'll not only learn resourcefulness you'll also learn that ever troublesome mobility that TBC is all about. I also think more communication needs to happen between leads and flash spam healers, needs to be clipped early. If you think you are a flash spammer talk to a more experienced healer, talk to your lead in raid chat and see what you can do differently, nothing is learned unless it's tried first. |
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| Guthammer | #296258 Tuesday April 22, 2008 at 12:24 | |
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Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
quote: Originally posted by Thrilas: Yeah any type of buff cause some amount of threat. Its not much but if the tank has not contacted the mob yet you are still higher then him. One thing that the Elitist Jerks sites says is a good strat is to put a shield and PoM on the tank before the pull. It take that 1st hit from the boss and lets the tank build some more threat before you need your heal to hit him. Please, please don't shield the tank on the pull. Warriors, at least, start rage starved. Shielding us only makes things worse--and if we /are/ worried about the boss's incoming DPS we are likely to get our 0 threat shield block and lower threat (assuming we have the rage) Thunder Clap and Demo Shouts up first. --
4 70s and counting |
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| Terrem | #296261 Tuesday April 22, 2008 at 12:36 | |
Pink Ball of Gnomish Fury |
quote: Originally posted by Guthammer: quote: Originally posted by Thrilas: Yeah any type of buff cause some amount of threat. Its not much but if the tank has not contacted the mob yet you are still higher then him. One thing that the Elitist Jerks sites says is a good strat is to put a shield and PoM on the tank before the pull. It take that 1st hit from the boss and lets the tank build some more threat before you need your heal to hit him. Please, please don't shield the tank on the pull. Warriors, at least, start rage starved. Shielding us only makes things worse--and if we /are/ worried about the boss's incoming DPS we are likely to get our 0 threat shield block and lower threat (assuming we have the rage) Thunder Clap and Demo Shouts up first. Quoted from ElitestJerk priest thread: quote:
Originally posted by ElitestJerk: Some people will try to tell you that pre-shielding a tank on a pull results in less threat, or a rage-starved tank. Unless you're running something with a fully kitted out mitigation-gear T6 tank (basically passive-crush-immune gear), this is patently false. Every mob of significance in end-game raiding hits for 3k+, and a PW:S+PoM will basically eliminate the first attack from the table, without causing *any* threat to you, as a healer. It is far better to keep the tank alive through the first 2-3 attacks than to worry about how much rage he is getting from those attacks. Realistically, almost every boss is pulled with Misdirect + Earth Shield + PoM + trinketed Shield Slam (warriors) anyway, so rage isn't really an issue when the boss is locked onto the tank and will be beating the crap out of him Very Soon Now. If your tanks really suck and need that rage to build threat ... then you're probably going to pull it off them on the first heal anyway, which negates the argument. --
 Elhonna -- 70 Human Holy Priest Terrem -- 70 Gnome Fury Warrior Chibiarthas -- Future Gnome Deathknight |
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