| Flufkin | #293948 Monday April 7, 2008 at 11:05 | |
Chaotic Good in a tiny, pointy package |
quote: Originally posted by Alisia: The other thing I said is that having 3 weapon specializations maxed out is a bad thing (fist/sword/dagger). Something I've actually seen in someone's talent build. O.o srsly? O.O wow edit: the 'srsly?' was for having actually seen it... not 'is it a bad thing?' =P --
   ~~ the emotional tylopod asks you to stop ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://xkcd.com/386/ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Amirite | #293986 Monday April 7, 2008 at 14:10 | |
السلام عليكم |
quote: Originally posted by Arkhain: quote: Stacking hit is dandy as long as your AP doesn't suffer Stacking AP is dandy as long as your hit doesn't suffer. Despite this, AP is almost unavoidable on rogue gear -- I can count on one hand the number of rogue pieces without AP. If there's a choice to be made, go for hit. No, it's hit>AP>crit without going overboard on any one of them. You don't stack AP at the cost of hit, ever. quote: Originally posted by Alisia: quote: Originally posted by Amirite: Stacking hit is dandy as long as your AP doesn't suffer (and crit to an extent, although crit is less important to a raiding combat rogue, our dps is sustained rather than burst). A rogue with 22 crit, 225 hit, and 1850 AP will be crushed on the WWS by a rogue with 22 crit, 300 hit, and 1750 AP. Also... daggers are dead. Unless you are VERY VERY GOOD (and you know who you are), give up the daggers. I realize that the class icon is a dagger, and you raided with daggers for umpteen years (so did I), but unless you're super hot shit now they're just not going to compete with a comparable sword build. Crit should pretty much always be in the form of agi. As for the daggers... I've been a sword rogue, pretty consistantly and only was daggers for a little bit. But, Blizzard fixed the crit wall in endgame for rogues. Because of this Mutilate is an interesting bunny right now with the change to imp-backstab. The problem is its intensely annoying to model. And your SOL for upgrades if no swords/fists/maces drop and you can't get an arena team. I never said a rogue should get crit in the form of crit rating. Agi is the best way to get crit for a combat rogue. Mutilate is still gimped by the need for EW and poison. Once they remove those requirements, it'll be as good as combat daggers for raiding, imo, which is slightly under combat swords. I got my season two swords back in season two by running a 5v5 with friends. If nothing else, make a 2v2 team and run 1v2 and just lose 10 games a week, making a new team every week. I've since replaced the S2 MH with ToA, which seems to drop like candy on halloween. --
  "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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| Alisia | #294004 Monday April 7, 2008 at 15:04 | |
Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Amirite: Mutilate is still gimped by the need for EW and poison. Once they remove those requirements, it'll be as good as combat daggers for raiding, imo, which is slightly under combat swords. I got my season two swords back in season two by running a 5v5 with friends. If nothing else, make a 2v2 team and run 1v2 and just lose 10 games a week, making a new team every week. I've since replaced the S2 MH with ToA, which seems to drop like candy on halloween. Ok, I'm not entirely sure what EW is as an acronym. But poison's never been an issue outside of maybe the first hit. I've got s2's, I got them in s2 too ;) I don't suck playing a sword rogue. I do suck as a combat dagger rogue. With the daggers I have and the gear I have, the mutilate build is an upgrade over the s2 swords. And I'm glad that the ToA drop so often for you, I'd probably still be swords if they had for us. In TRS there are ususally about 5 rogues. At the start 100% were sword rogues. Through KZ, no spiteblade, killed Kazzak, 2 hope-enders. By the time we went to SSC one had gone daggers and another had gone maces. I had gotten a blinkstrike drop with a latro's. Go into SSC, pick up another sword rogue. 2 talons the entire time. One person goes fist/sword. I pick up s2 swords. Dagger rogue stops raiding as much due to RL. We pick up a human dw fury warrior who likes swords/maces. I pick up daggers because with that many sword users I'm just not going to have a chance unless I hoard points. We've had 2 blade of infamy-ies and 2 blade of savagery-ies. And with rogue roster changes we have 4 pure sword rogues again. Believe me, I'd still be swords if it were environmentally viable. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Amirite | #294007 Monday April 7, 2008 at 15:18 | |
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السلام عليكم |
Sorry, it's expose weakness (EW) Mutilate is GREAT FUN for pvp, but raiding I didn't like it. Have you tried a run with the S2s and compared it on WWS to the dagger/mutilate build? (Not theoretical, but actual numbers) Lag + positioning + EW + poison = pain in the ass to me =D I know about your guilds rogues' woes, I talk to Mik a lot =) --
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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| Alisia | #294012 Monday April 7, 2008 at 15:51 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Amirite: Sorry, it's expose weakness (EW) Mutilate is GREAT FUN for pvp, but raiding I didn't like it. Have you tried a run with the S2s and compared it on WWS to the dagger/mutilate build? (Not theoretical, but actual numbers) Lag + positioning + EW + poison = pain in the ass to me =D WWS no, our maintainer left, and now reports are getting more sporadic. Also the legacy reports are gone from when I switched from swords to combat daggers, albeit that was with a heartrazor. The best I can run is a violation comparison and use the (admittedly flawed predictor) EJ spreadsheet. I know that right now my violation suggests, validated against Mik's, I am competitive on bosses. AOE trash less so, because of the lack of BF. I can run a full comparison though between bosses through the violation data. In terms of the spreadsheet, it suggests that it would be an approx. 89 dps downgrade to switch back to combat swords. However, its known that Mutilate is not consistantly modelled on the spreadsheet due to the nature of crit. As for EW? With the ashtongue trinket its much easier to keep up a cycle with it up nearly all the time. Also, the weird thing is that more and more I've occasionally gotten error messages saying that I can't reapply a 5point rupture because there is a more powerful spell in place. This is usually when I blow an envenom or a snd depending on the cutup timer. I have to say a 14k+ envenom on Gurtogg is a wonderful thing. This is why I say blizzard removed the crit wall. In classic it was hard to maintain a nice hit/crit balance as you progressed up until Naxx. Essentially favoring a consistant burn rather than burst. So there was effectively a wall to the performance increase you achieved through crit. Hunters didn't have that problem because of their low hit and dodge/parry resistance, or why survival was such a potentially powerful build as gear progressed. In BC as gear progresses hit and crit maintain a consistant relationship. Thus both increase at similar rates, failing to lead to the "wall" where one stat has an inverse relationship to the other in terms of itemization. It's my own crazy interpretation, but it seems to be consistant. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Amirite | #294031 Monday April 7, 2008 at 16:41 | |
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السلام عليكم |
Interesting. Perhaps I'll try to snap up some daggers and give it a whirl, to see how much it's changed.
--
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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| Gwen | #294078 Monday April 7, 2008 at 23:56 | |
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quote: Originally posted by Flufkin: quote: Originally posted by Alisia: The other thing I said is that having 3 weapon specializations maxed out is a bad thing (fist/sword/dagger). Something I've actually seen in someone's talent build. O.o srsly? O.O wow edit: the 'srsly?' was for having actually seen it... not 'is it a bad thing?' =P I specc'ed all three because I thought dagger-specc would help with my throwing weapon! =( (sorry, I couldn't resist =p ....3 wpn specc? oh wow! =D) |
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| Elofax | #294100 Tuesday April 8, 2008 at 04:16 | |
Holy Assassin of Elune |
quote: Originally posted by Alisia: edit2: never ever EVER ever... please don't ever... go without relentless strikes. NO matter what spec. It is shiny, happy and loves you. It will give you candy if you take it and it will hurt you more than can imagine if you avoid it. With a single exception: if you have the Rod of the Sun King and other high-end gear, the combination of full Combat Potency and Serrated Blades/Hemo is worth giving up Relentless Strikes. I'm pretty sure, however, that this build ONLY works because of the energy procs coming in off of Rod of the Sun King. |
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| Elofax | #294104 Tuesday April 8, 2008 at 06:22 | |
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Holy Assassin of Elune |
Hrmm, tinkered on the spreadsheet, it looks like in the very best gear (BT/Sunwell level) even without the Rod of the Sun King you can still get enough hit, expertise, and haste that Combat Potency provides enough energy that you can ditch Relentless Strikes in favor of Serrated Blades/Hemo and still maintain a good SnD/Rupture cycle. Way too sleepy to figure out the exact cutoff point, but it apparently is possible for 0/40/21 to work even without the RotSK at endgame. | |
| Alisia | #294115 Tuesday April 8, 2008 at 08:16 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Elofax: Hrmm, tinkered on the spreadsheet, it looks like in the very best gear (BT/Sunwell level) even without the Rod of the Sun King you can still get enough hit, expertise, and haste that Combat Potency provides enough energy that you can ditch Relentless Strikes in favor of Serrated Blades/Hemo and still maintain a good SnD/Rupture cycle. Way too sleepy to figure out the exact cutoff point, but it apparently is possible for 0/40/21 to work even without the RotSK at endgame. It's "possible" but its putting a lot of dependence on a 20% proc chance. But, it's also so gear dependent, I have a feeling there is only one or two gear combinations that would be properly sustainable. Its like talking about the environmental pressures that specifically aided the evolution of the panda... edit: It looks like you'd need to be able to take the oh weapon to .8 speed and have under a 2% miss rate. Every .1 speed difference is equivalent at a 2% miss rate to an extra hemorrhage. Which depressingly, is what I told Mik it would take to make it an exceptionally viable build since it shared a lot in common with dual-wielding warriors/shamen, haste and hit... Edit 2: It looks like you would ideally want after talents; 464-465 passive haste rating (assuming slayer 2 piece & 1.4 speed oh), 330 hit rating, and 64 expertise rating. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Alisia edited this message on Tuesday April 8, 2008 at 11:45 | ||
| Alisia | #294157 Tuesday April 8, 2008 at 13:31 | |
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Ready for Winter |
New dps change from spreadsheet. They updated the ej spreadsheet today. Its reading that the difference between combat daggers, mutilate and combat swords (w/s2) are (take with grain of salt). Combat daggers: unbuffed: 818.52 buffed: 1473.13 Mutilate unbuffed: 849.49 Buffed: 1508.52 Combat swords unbuffed: 830.15 buffed: 1563.27 I'll also set up a wws account to do a base comparison. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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