| Alisia | #293562 Friday April 4, 2008 at 09:01 | |
Ready for Winter |
I've seen... a few people running around with slow oh's because they have better dps and better stats. http://roguecrap.blogspot.com/2006/12/patch-20-combat-potency.html So, Non-math summary: Faster oh's mean more energy procs, which means more yellow damage. Damage stats on the OH matter less because of this. Its one of the reasons Latro's Shifting sword is one of the best oh's pre-BT quality gear for a sword rogue. Slow oh's work well for shamans and fury warriors, not as much so for combat rogues. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Amirite | #293586 Friday April 4, 2008 at 09:43 | |
السلام عليكم |
quote: Originally posted by Alisia: I've seen... a few people running around with slow oh's because they have better dps and better stats. http://roguecrap.blogspot.com/2006/12/patch-20-combat-potency.html So, Non-math summary: Faster oh's mean more energy procs, which means more yellow damage. Damage stats on the OH matter less because of this. Its one of the reasons Latro's Shifting sword is one of the best oh's pre-BT quality gear for a sword rogue. Slow oh's work well for shamans and fury warriors, not as much so for combat rogues. The fact that you'd have to say this to any combat rogue indicates that that rogue has no concept of how their class works. This leads to my new custom title. Failure is rampant in this game. --
  "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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| Aina | #293641 Friday April 4, 2008 at 12:21 | |
Member |
Try working in customer service, failure is rampant everywhere sadly. But yeah, the fact that this warrants mentioning is sad. | |
| Quinnaria | #293642 Friday April 4, 2008 at 12:21 | |
Hugz & Cookiez! |
If we don't help they will continue to fail. Only by lending a helping hand can we teach someone skills. Only by asking, can they learn. Biting off their heads and treating them badly for asking, or not doing "the right thing" doesn't help anyone. Especially the raid ;) --
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| Alisia | #293645 Friday April 4, 2008 at 12:32 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Quinnaria: If we don't help they will continue to fail. Only by lending a helping hand can we teach someone skills. Only by asking, can they learn. Biting off their heads and treating them badly for asking, or not doing "the right thing" doesn't help anyone. Especially the raid ;) Which is why I'm trying to be gentle >_>. But I'd hope to save people from having to learn something that took me a while to work out on my own. It's something that matters for all combat builds, but its especially true for sword or fist/sword builds. For me to learn it took a lot of trial and error. Trying 1.5 speed mh's and realizing the Thrash blade (I miss procs off procs off procs... ie "who wants to see Jamalan the prophet die in under a minute?") was better damage because it was slower, and because of the proc. Trying a 2.6 speed sword in the oh and finding it kill my damage. But staying under a 1.6 speed worked really well, and I just stuck with it. Now there's just some good math to back it up. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Guthammer | #293646 Friday April 4, 2008 at 12:46 | |
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Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
Alisia, I loved the old, pre-pre-nerf thrash blade. Nothing like proc giving 2 swings--that both proced. I think my record was 7 swings in an instant. I was like what happened to my mob? Yes combat potency is, well potent. But while you are leveling up the first 2 levels are quite underwhelming and 3 is only a bit more noticeable. At 5 I occasionally giggle like Quinn when I see it go off 2-3 times quickly. --
4 70s and counting |
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| Aina | #293661 Friday April 4, 2008 at 14:53 | |
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Member |
It also depends on the level of interest a player has in min/maxing I'd say. I know there are people out there that play with less than optimal specs and gear choices, but they're having fun with it. In 5-mans and even 10-mans and farm 25-man content, I'm pretty cool with that. Progression raiding however often requires all available players doing be doing the best they can with the gear available to them, and learning which pieces of gear (or spec choices) are seriously holding them back. There are many varying levels one can take this to. One of the easiest for a rogue would be to visit Shadow Panther and make gear choices based on the gear rankings there. Even basing choices on these relatively simple rankings can make a substantial difference. To take things a step further, the optimization spreadsheets available from the Elitist Jerks forums take it to a new level, factoring all gear synergies and buffs and suggesting combo point cycles and a rough raw dps output that should be doable. Using these tools has helped me take my rogue from doing decent damage to the severe damage dealer I need to be for the content I'm interested in, thus pulling my weight and fulfilling my raiding role. |
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| Aina edited this message on Friday April 4, 2008 at 15:03 | ||
| Quinnaria | #293686 Friday April 4, 2008 at 16:50 | |
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Hugz & Cookiez! |
quote: Which is why I'm trying to be gentle >_>. EXActly! And I commend you for it! --
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| Flufkin | #293904 Monday April 7, 2008 at 05:04 | |
Chaotic Good in a tiny, pointy package |
quote: Originally posted by Quinnaria: If we don't help they will continue to fail. Only by lending a helping hand can we teach someone skills. Only by asking, can they learn. Biting off their heads and treating them badly for asking, or not doing "the right thing" doesn't help anyone. Especially the raid ;) And this is the perfect place to put info like this - because those rogues who want to learn will come here. (I did it last year, and was given sound advice, and told where the resources were to help me learn my class more and become a better rogue - which I think I then did) Also, this way, nobody will necessarily feel embarrassed or defensive, as they might be if someone whispered them to tell them that their gear choice isn't optimal. (never a good thing) Elitist Jerks forums and http://rogue.raidcal.com/ ftw. --
   ~~ the emotional tylopod asks you to stop ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://xkcd.com/386/ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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| Arkhain | #293911 Monday April 7, 2008 at 06:03 | |
this is it for a winner! |
Also, please stop stacking crit. Hit is your primary stat, and hit or hit/agi should be in all of your sockets but two, in which you can toss agi/stam for your Relentless metagem. | |
| Alisia | #293912 Monday April 7, 2008 at 06:20 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Arkhain: Also, please stop stacking crit. Hit is your primary stat, and hit or hit/agi should be in all of your sockets but two, in which you can toss agi/stam for your Relentless metagem. Ok, on the one hand, yeah, stacking crit if its not in the form of agi is bad. But there are some cases where its more important to get some other stats than it is to get extra hit. Hit is not the only stat. It is a good stat, but it is not the be-all end all. One of the reasons that you have to slot more for hit when you go higher and higher is that less hit is available. But just having hit is not going to make your damage great. Stacking one stat is not going to work as a strategy. That said? Yeah all my gear is hit, hit/agi or agi/sta. But that's because its just harder to get hit on gear in some cases so you have to stack it in others. If you have to use the rogue spreadsheet. But honestly, pay attention to the AEP calculator. It will really help you know what stat you need to work on for yourself. edit: another thing, having more than 2 weapon specs in one combat build. Is a terrible thing to do. And even when it comes down to it, x/sword is the only thing you should have there as a dual spec. Since the sword oh will cause the proc on the mh. edit2: never ever EVER ever... please don't ever... go without relentless strikes. NO matter what spec. It is shiny, happy and loves you. It will give you candy if you take it and it will hurt you more than can imagine if you avoid it. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Arkhain | #293917 Monday April 7, 2008 at 07:16 | |
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this is it for a winner! |
quote: Hit is not the only stat. It is a good stat, but it is not the be-all end all. One of the reasons that you have to slot more for hit when you go higher and higher is that less hit is available. But just having hit is not going to make your damage great. If you already know how to itemize yourself, then you'd be stacking hit anyways. It's the best stat for anyone who doesn't know how to gear a combat rogue. Specifically gemming for crit rating, though, is just not the way to go. PS combat fist/sword is awesome, don't be a hater. |
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| Amirite | #293922 Monday April 7, 2008 at 07:48 | |
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السلام عليكم |
quote: Originally posted by Arkhain: quote: Hit is not the only stat. It is a good stat, but it is not the be-all end all. One of the reasons that you have to slot more for hit when you go higher and higher is that less hit is available. But just having hit is not going to make your damage great. If you already know how to itemize yourself, then you'd be stacking hit anyways. It's the best stat for anyone who doesn't know how to gear a combat rogue. Specifically gemming for crit rating, though, is just not the way to go. PS combat fist/sword is awesome, don't be a hater. Depending on gear level, combat fist/sword is about a 1-2% increase over sword/sword. Stacking hit is dandy as long as your AP doesn't suffer (and crit to an extent, although crit is less important to a raiding combat rogue, our dps is sustained rather than burst). A rogue with 22 crit, 225 hit, and 1850 AP will be crushed on the WWS by a rogue with 22 crit, 300 hit, and 1750 AP. Also... daggers are dead. Unless you are VERY VERY GOOD (and you know who you are), give up the daggers. I realize that the class icon is a dagger, and you raided with daggers for umpteen years (so did I), but unless you're super hot shit now they're just not going to compete with a comparable sword build. Basically, really good rogues can work about 10x harder to achieve close to the same dps as the sword or fist/sword rogues. --
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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| Alisia | #293936 Monday April 7, 2008 at 09:02 | |
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Ready for Winter |
quote: Originally posted by Arkhain: If you already know how to itemize yourself, then you'd be stacking hit anyways. It's the best stat for anyone who doesn't know how to gear a combat rogue. Specifically gemming for crit rating, though, is just not the way to go. PS combat fist/sword is awesome, don't be a hater. In terms of AEP expertise is actually a slightly better than hit. Its just harder to come by (go go shard of contempt!). http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silver%20Hand&n=alisia See, fine with gemming. I SAID that pretty much anything x/sword is FINE! Fist/sword is a great spec. The other thing I said is that having 3 weapon specializations maxed out is a bad thing (fist/sword/dagger). Something I've actually seen in someone's talent build. quote: Originally posted by Amirite: Stacking hit is dandy as long as your AP doesn't suffer (and crit to an extent, although crit is less important to a raiding combat rogue, our dps is sustained rather than burst). A rogue with 22 crit, 225 hit, and 1850 AP will be crushed on the WWS by a rogue with 22 crit, 300 hit, and 1750 AP. Also... daggers are dead. Unless you are VERY VERY GOOD (and you know who you are), give up the daggers. I realize that the class icon is a dagger, and you raided with daggers for umpteen years (so did I), but unless you're super hot shit now they're just not going to compete with a comparable sword build. Crit should pretty much always be in the form of agi. As for the daggers... I've been a sword rogue, pretty consistantly and only was daggers for a little bit. But, Blizzard fixed the crit wall in endgame for rogues. Because of this Mutilate is an interesting bunny right now with the change to imp-backstab. The problem is its intensely annoying to model. And your SOL for upgrades if no swords/fists/maces drop and you can't get an arena team. --
Ghostcrawler: "Rogue talents are hard because the class is ultimately very mathy." Ghostcrawler is secretly Barbie? |
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| Arkhain | #293943 Monday April 7, 2008 at 09:58 | |
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this is it for a winner! |
quote: Stacking hit is dandy as long as your AP doesn't suffer Stacking AP is dandy as long as your hit doesn't suffer. Despite this, AP is almost unavoidable on rogue gear -- I can count on one hand the number of rogue pieces without AP. If there's a choice to be made, go for hit. quote: I SAID that pretty much anything x/sword is FINE! Mea culpa, I missed the "more". I would've thought that it wouldn't be necessary to point out that three separate specs would be a bad thing... though, I'm certain we all have seen some terrible specs here and there. quote: In terms of AEP expertise is actually a slightly better than hit. Right. It can't be stacked, though, especially for the people who really need this advice. For the majority of combat rogues who need some help, "get a 1.5 or faster offhand" and "regem and gear for hit" are almost always the two best pieces of advice they can get. |
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