| Thel | #284670 Monday February 25, 2008 at 16:15 | |
Like a caster, with Arrows |
Ok! So, I made a "how I is raid on a hunter" thread when thelaya got to 70, and that worked out amazingly, I got a ton of great info. So, lets do it again, but with more shaman this time. My Shammy is just about to get to 70, and is currently Ele. I'd love to stay that way for raiding, so lets start there. Is it doable to raid as Ele to start out with, or should I go resto until I get into 25 mans? Assuming I stay Ele, what spec (geenrally) am I looking at? Currently I'm going down into resto to get the spell hit and crit, I don't remembe rthe numbers specifically. Are there any "must have" raiding talents, or any that look good on paper, but just don't cut it? How about gear? How much hit to get hit cap (it's been a while since I was a caster, it's 16% right?) Crit over damage? Int? Spell Haste? Agi? Flood me with information and oppinions! I want it all! And you're all amazing for giving it. Except for Mendo. --
Cry Havoc, let loose the Gnomes of war! Aya- 70 Hunter, BM Thelius - 70 Shamman, Ele Trixxie - 70 Warlock, Fire Destro Thelayis - 70 Paladin, Prot Thelily - 70 Fury Warrior |
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| Tribal | #284942 Tuesday February 26, 2008 at 23:34 | |
Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
Hey Thel! I see you trying to replace me! *sniffles* It's not as easy as it looks! *flex* Here's my two pence: I'd like to think I echo the voice the community at large when I say you can start raiding with whatever spec you want. If your purpose is to go into the raid to enjoy the experience, spec doesn't matter. Having said that... I know *some* people *cough* aren't happy unless they're on the top of the meter. Starting out as elemental in raiding isn't going to do that for you until you reach the hit cap or come close enough to it (12% is fairly good). This shouldn't discourage you from playing the way you want to, though! The same advice goes for enhancement. Resto is different. With resto, you need more talent than gear. At least... until Blizzard decides that +hit is needed to land an effective heal. The biggest issue, of course, is learning the ropes of shaman healing. Our heals are terribly slow and our mana regen is sadly lacking. -- The rest comes from my experience with Ms Sun. Remember, YMMV! :) Remember that each spec brings something unique and wonderful to the raid. The really maximize a raids synergy, you should always be put in a spec-specific group. To many people believe, for instance, that 1 shaman can fill each gap effectively. It's not true... each spec has talents that enhance what we bring to a raid. Understanding this will make you a better, more effective raider. With elemental, you'll want hit > crit > damage. You'll want to be weary of haste because of clipping issues. Of course, coming from a hunter, I'm sure you're well versed in clipping. Some elementalists will forgo the rather paltry crit totem and spec deeper into restoration for Nature's Swiftness. My personal option is that you're there to enhance the whole party... speccing deep, for shamans, is a Good Thing(tm). Which is another good topic for this section. If you go elemental, you'll also make a *really* effective off-healer for that OH CRAP moment in the raid. This is especially true if you spec into restoration after filling out your elemental tree. My personal favourite is, of course, enhancement. I'm not going to mention anything about this in hopes that one of the more senior career enhancement shamans will have something far more useful to say that I. I'm an expert fist-weapon user and a LOT of people think I'm nuts :P My fight style is a little different. There are LOs that can give you a more general understanding of the spec. Restoration is my baby. I've done so much research on this spec that I've finally started to contribute to a few people investigating some Theorycraft regarding resto healing. Having said that, YYMstillV :P My opinion, if you head this way, is regen > healing > haste > crit. When we crit, BOY do we crit. But if the target is dead... the crit doesn't count. You'll find that we gain a sizable bonus to our healing spells because of the casting times. Because of this we can downrank more effectively. This should be handled with care, alas, and you should do a fair bit of experimenting on your own for a while to see just where you need to go/be. Down ranking is important because mana is constantly an issue. You'll find no spirit on our gear. You will, however, find +mp5 on our gear. You'll also find a LOT of that gear comes with gem slots that encourage +mp5 gemming. The higher your healing bonus, the further you can down rank and the more you can stopcast. If you've ever seen me healing in a raid, you'll notice that I periodically jump around while healing during a boss fight. I do this because 1) our big heal is SO slow, 2) the mana cost is SO high, 3) because of the other two factors, I start to cast the heal *before* I know that heal will be effective. If, before it goes off, my tank has taken damage I let it go through. If my tank is being well tended by others, I jump and stop the heal and start the process all over again. Haste, to me, is important *because* my heals are so long. I've seen a sizable improvement since I've started collecting haste. I've even dropped some MP5. I went on a "test run" with my haste over mp5 in ZA with the guild and was able to two-heal ZA with Shiningstar without *ever* running into mana issues (although it came close for both of us :P ). Lastly, I place crit on the list because crits are Nice. This is especially true if you have the talent that increases armour for your healed target or even Healing Way. You should, as a shaman, not depend on crit heals. However, they can *easily* pull you out of a sticky situation. As I mentioned ZA, a few of those lives were saved *because* my spell crit *with* healing wave. With both -- when the stars align -- I can easily take a tank from the brink of death to full health in about two heals (depending on the tank. Bears with 20+k health make me a sad monkey :P ) I wouldn't sacrifice anything for crit though. In general terms, take a look at the gear you find for whatever spec you're looking at. Look at the dressing room page for your class and it's various set differences. It's an *excellent* source of undercover information. Ask yourself as non-biasedly as possible WHY blizzard did what they did. For instance, there's a reason that none of our stuff comes with spirit. Just sit and think about it for a minute and a lot of your questions will be answered. Compare those answers to what's going on the "the real world" -- check out meter-toppers and see how they're gemming/chanting etc. If it makes sense when compared to your previous answers -- voila! If it doesn't, ask that person directly. :) And for that cuppa that goes with my two-pense: Ghula and I are excellent healers in the same class/spec, alas, we have very different healing styles. She's an *excellent* source of information. Her advice might differ from mine; I'd encourage you to take a look at why and consider all the information presented and not disregard anything contrary information from either one of us off-hand. :) Arramen, likewise, is a great source of enhancement information. I only mention him because he's a bully the rolls on healing gear. :P I, unfortunately, don't really *know* any elementalists well enough to speak of them. Hopefully some will post that are as verbose as I am about restoration :P If you ask, I can post comment specs for each of the three, however, I've always found that self-discover it a great tool. There are some "critical" talents for each tree, but fortunately you can't get passed them, when speccing, unless you *really* try. This post is far to long as is, though. Take care! --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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| Aea | #284971 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 04:49 | |
Member |
I leveled my shaman as resto all the way to 70 and respecced to elemental as soon as I dinged. I did ALL my raiding as elemental, all my grouping as elemental... and continue to do stuff as elemental. All flavors of shamans are very refreshing to see in raids. =D I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this. I don't put up the best numbers, and the loot tables are INSANELY frustrating for elemental shamans in 25 man content (=cloth will probably be one of the best options for you in SSC/TK outside of T5). It's almost like blizzard doesn't think elemental shamans raid... how odd! But I will say that even if elemental doesn't put up the greatest DPS numbers (if that's what your concerned with) in 25 mans, the overall boost you give to a caster group makes up for it a lot. So in my opinion, elemental raiding is very possible and a good addition to groups... much like the uber sexy boomkins. But just expect overall hair-ripping frustration at the loot tables blizz has in instances for us. It's quite a shame wanting to upgrade your old gear and being unable to outside of T6 content/cloth drops. As an edit, agreed 100% with what Tribal said. Elemental is very flexible in the sense that you can throw out a heal in those oh crap moments AND your gear boosts your healing, too. You can heal quite a bit and still go back to DPSing once everything calms down. It's a very, very flexible spec and it shows in your +heal and mana pool. |
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| Mondaris | #284976 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 06:37 | |
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If you ever become a healer make sure you get Healbot, probably the best tool ever. If you want to know more about elemental though ask Traithan, He knows his spec and does well with it from what I hear. I'm surprised he hasn't written a book on it here yet. If you're bored enough though these people take the time to spell everything out.:) http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16947-shaman_one_stop_elemental_shop/ --
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| Mondaris edited this message on Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 08:48 | ||
| Thel | #284989 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 09:26 | |
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Like a caster, with Arrows |
Well, if I do go resto, I'm not all that worried, since I've been a healer for a very, very long time (read: all of pre-BC, healed everything from UBRS to Naxx), and the bit of deep resto that I did (lvl 55-65) it feels like pally healing with tricks, so I'd be good there. I'm mostly looking at Ele for the boost to the group, and the synergy that they bring. Plus they do seem to be a bit lacking in representation. The loot I'm sure is a bit of a cause for this, but having worn cloth on a paladin, I'm more than happy to wear cloth on a shammy. If my own personal DPS isn't the best I've ever seen, I can go back to the hunter :) As far as haste goes, LB is 2.0 seconds, which means we've got .5 seconds to knock off. By patch 2.4 with the GCD modification from spell haste, I bet you could get it down to 1.3ish before it'd start to clip. That's an insane amount of haste, so I think I'd be good there. I know I need 16% hit total, but I get 3% from totem of wrath, and 5% (I think?) from the resto talents I can grab (assuming I go 41/0/20). That leaves 8%, which is pretty easy to get from a caster standpoint. So while I may not start at hit cap, I should be able to grab it pretty easily. I've done a few instances as ele, and what I'm seeing is bursty damage that I can do bloody well forever. With wisdom and water sheild up, I can go forever. But, if that's not enough, the shammy is an alchemist (for the stone) and a JCer (for the Owl trinket). Would I have to fall back on those for longer raid fights, do you think? Or is wisdom / water shield enough? Thanks for the input all, I'm lovin' it :) Edit: Monda, work blocks EJs boards, so I'll have to take a look at that when I get home :( --
Cry Havoc, let loose the Gnomes of war! Aya- 70 Hunter, BM Thelius - 70 Shamman, Ele Trixxie - 70 Warlock, Fire Destro Thelayis - 70 Paladin, Prot Thelily - 70 Fury Warrior |
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| Kreallana | #284997 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 10:43 | |
Quantum Kittie Heavenly Healz |
Traithan wrote a leveling guide for shaman...but we keep him pretty busy running herd on us. As for Healbot - can't stand it, myself. To each their own. :-) Tribal has mana issues and so heals quite differently than I do. I have as yet to run out of mana even on a long fight. I have popped exactly two mana potions in the last three months. Both were after I died and reincarnated during a fight. I rarely downrank. I never interrupt a cast. I start spamming chain heal as soon as the fight starts and don't stop until the fight is over. I may have to toss a LHW or swiftness+HW on my primary target, or ZOMG HEALZ TEH TNAK!! But for the most part...I'm a chain spamming machine. And I never interrupt it unless I've got to toss an emergency cleanse somewhere. Even if my target winds up topped up, I don't stop my chain heal. Someone near my target may be low and I'd rather they get the bounce ASAP than wait for me to shift focus to them and start a cast again. However, unlike Tribal, I don't have mana issues. So yeah. As she said, YMMV. I stat out... MP5 > Heal > Int > Haste > Crit I have three sets (well, four if you count my fledgling Arena set). I have a plus healing set that puts me at >2200 healing unbuffed, but tanks my raid MP5 ic down to the low 200s. I use this set if I am healing a very hard hitting fight and have a shadow priest in my group that is uncommonly good at staying alive. (ie. rarely *ducks and runs for cover*) I have a mana regen set that I almost always wear that has my healing at the mid 1600s unbuffed, but my raid MP5 ic in the mid 300s. This set has spellsurge on my mace...spellsurge is most awesome. I have a fledgling haste set. This one, I rarely use. It tanks both my healing and my mp5. Eventually, I will mix and match to find a nice balance between mp5, healing and haste. This is my goal. Right now, though, I do not like the amount of MP5 that I lose to gain the haste...but eventually I will get the pieces I want with haste and it will work out (like the chest piece off Zul'jin). When I get the haste pieces rotated in, I will most likely have to downrank a bit and keep an eye on my mana. Neither of which I have to bother with at the moment. My healing set is also my farming set (and Leo set) because it pushes my +dmg to around 900 (yeah, yeah - but it's better than the 334 it sits at in my mp5 set) and lets me play around like I think I'm an elemental shaman. Plus boosts the amount that my ES heals me for when I go fisticuffs with the mobs. *snickers* --
Nykka, Kreallana, Krea, Rwnaella - AoC Kreallana, Enheduannah, Talwien, Ghula - WoW Nykka, Kreallana, Rwnaella, Dremmavae - WAR "my defensive skills consist primarily of running and screaming for mercy.", [Michael A. Ventrella, Arch Enemies] |
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| Kreallana edited this message on Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 11:07 | ||
| Alissah | #285020 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 12:17 | |
Wanderlust Lead |
41/0/20 Elemental build hit % Nature guidance - 3% Elemental precision - 6% Totem of Wrath - 3% Draenie hit - 1% 16 - 13% = 3% (all the hit you need with this spec) |
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| Thel | #285027 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 12:28 | |
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Like a caster, with Arrows |
I thought the dreanai hit bonus was melee hit for shammans, am I wrong?
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Cry Havoc, let loose the Gnomes of war! Aya- 70 Hunter, BM Thelius - 70 Shamman, Ele Trixxie - 70 Warlock, Fire Destro Thelayis - 70 Paladin, Prot Thelily - 70 Fury Warrior |
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| Alissah | #285029 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 12:37 | |
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Wanderlust Lead |
I thought shamans had the spell hit and paladins had the melee? | |
| Epo | #285049 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 13:59 | |
More DPS than your raid combined! |
Shamans, Mages, Priests have Spell Hit. Hunters, Paladins have Melee Hit. Stinks for enhancement shamans. I don't need stinkin' spell hit! |
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| Thel | #285056 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 14:10 | |
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Like a caster, with Arrows |
Oh sweet, I do get the spell hit. Excelent then, I can pick up 3% hit just lyin' on the ground, it's that easy. 'S like CLing fish in a barrel.
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Cry Havoc, let loose the Gnomes of war! Aya- 70 Hunter, BM Thelius - 70 Shamman, Ele Trixxie - 70 Warlock, Fire Destro Thelayis - 70 Paladin, Prot Thelily - 70 Fury Warrior |
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| Tribal | #285122 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 18:40 | |
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Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
quote: Originally posted by Epo: Shamans, Mages, Priests have Spell Hit. Hunters, Paladins have Melee Hit. Stinks for enhancement shamans. I don't need stinkin' spell hit! EARTHSHOCK! papapapow! It's kinda frustrating because I've been asked on a few occasions to actually interrupt spell casting of various mobs while healing. The frustrating part is that I've "missed" several times because I only have 1% hit :P Take that 1% and love it. :P In general, however, you're right. It's kinda lame that the aura doesn't change with your spec :P --- quote: Originally posted by Kreallana: However, unlike Tribal, I don't have mana issues. So yeah. As she said, YMMV. Just for the record, I *had* mana issues when learning to heal. My healing style evolved because of it, yes, but I have never run out of mana in a raid since then. Sometimes I even end up with half-a-bar at the end of the boss! :D And yes, I know you weren't making a dig, Krea :) Your post just made it sound like I was running out of mana in raids :P I dun wanna scare people off! :) (I can heal, I *swear*!) :P --- I think I'd also like to bring to the table this (just a little off-topic, but what a better topic title to bring this up again in?); (it's all my opinion, of course) Healing shaman's shouldn't be asked to do anything but heal. Asking your healing shaman to twist is gambling with your life and the life of the raid. Enhancement shamans are the most capable of effectively twisting. Shaman's should be placed, whenever possible, into a spec specific group. Lastly, when you're in a group with other shamans, you should make it your business to get to know them. Aside from the community spirit you'd be showing, its important to discuss strats between each other. This is especially true if you're in the *same* group as the shaman. It's really frustrating to be in a group with noncommunicative people. It's even more frustrating when they're stepping on your totem-toes. --- With respect, --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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| Tribal edited this message on Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 18:57 | ||
| Mondaris | #285142 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 20:24 | |
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Yeah, resto shamans don't have mana problems. It comes with gear more then anything, thats usually why I never downrank heals; I can afford to overheal, and if its that hard of a fight on mana there's always that trusty alchamists stone. :D
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| Tribal | #285145 Wednesday February 27, 2008 at 20:37 | |
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Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
quote: Originally posted by Mondaris: Yeah, resto shamans don't have mana problems. It comes with gear more then anything, thats usually why I never downrank heals; I can afford to overheal, and if its that hard of a fight on mana there's always that trusty alchamists stone. :D You know, that's a really good point. My gear has *dramatically* improved since I was in the throws of learning. I had grown up enhancement and was "forced" into restoration. As a result, the *best* healing gear I had was hunter gear that had +int and mp5 on it. :P Things have changed... Waaaay off topic, now :P Goodnight! --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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| Glacial | #293046 Tuesday April 1, 2008 at 22:19 | |
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Member |
Hey Thel. 41/0/20 or Bust. Glacial will be moved over ... hopefully by this weekend? Personally? I don't think there's much flexibility in the elemental tree. You HAVE to spend 20 points in Resto to get Tidal focus, because it's a bonus 5% spellcrit. Besides that, there's a bonus to spellhit and such in Resto, but I've found that having Ancestrall fortitude can really help in those clutch situations where you have to fire off a few LHW's and since you're probably at about 30~% crit raid buffed, the proc is ALMOST 1/3 up. Glacial's armory is still on SC, and she's alrightly geared. The one stop ele shop is pretty solid. That's where I went to finetune spec choices. The biggest things are whether or not you can get chain into your rotation. Hopefully see you soon :D |
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