| Dae | #276259 Monday December 31, 2007 at 11:04 | |
Shadow carebear >.> |
So I'm transferring my (shadow)priest to Silver pretty soon, and plan to start raiding with her again (yay!). I've taken several months' break to level the warlock, and am now wondering whether to swap out some of my priest's heroic badge gear for a few of the new(ish) items. Specifically, what do you guys think about the small amount of spell haste available on the new heroic gear? I'm solid on how other gear aspects/stats fit together and benefit my dps, but I've seen precious little theorycrafting for spell haste. Does anyone have an opinion on how much you'd need to make a significant difference in dps, and whether it's worth saccing a little damage or crit for it (and if so, in what ratios?)? I'm currently at hit cap, and have been stacking damage and taking crit when it's convenient thus far. Curious to see how spell haste fits into the balance. --
  + Daevia, 70 'lock (happily Affliction again!), and Daelind, 70 rogue |
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| Arkhain | #276263 Monday December 31, 2007 at 11:41 | |
this is it for a winner! |
For full shadow, Haste affects Mind Flay only at a rate of 16 rating per +1%. Crit affects Mind Blast and SWD for a rate of 44 rating per +1% (and thus is nigh-useless). To find your spelldamage bonus to Mind Flay, divine your average tic by 70. If you can sac crit for haste directly, do so, but don't cost yourself spelldamage or hit. Hit until cap and spelldamage are your prime staples. Haste is not too terrible, but only at higher levels of gear. If your average MF tics are 670 or higher, the Achromic haste pants will begin to be better than Trial-Fires. The new badge rewards are unfortunately not too particularly well-suited for shadow priests, with the exception of the wand. |
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| Dae | #276414 Tuesday January 1, 2008 at 23:55 | |
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Shadow carebear >.> |
So, by 16 rating to 1%, you mean that Mindflay is 1% faster? That's the kind of conversion I'm looking for. I had a general feeling that the haste on the heroic badge gear probably wasn't enough to be much use, and if that is the case then I agree that it isn't.
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+ Daevia, 70 'lock (happily Affliction again!), and Daelind, 70 rogue |
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| Xeonio | #283457 Monday February 18, 2008 at 18:13 | |
Charter Lead: Relentless |
I personally hate Mind Blast. Other then the fact that its totally inefficient and makes me run oom super fast I just don't like it. Plus it makes me waste talent points so I can recast it again faster. The great thing about a spell like Mind Flay is that it is channeled. Even though it gets faster with spell haste it still retains its full bonus of +dmg. I'm currently working on my priest to get it down to 2.5 speed, which in theory will make it better dmg then a mindblast with considerably better mana to dmg ratio. With the huge amounts of spell haste from both badge and ZA its rather easy to get quite a bit of it. When I have some better numbers I'll post 'em for ya.
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| Roberth | #283471 Monday February 18, 2008 at 19:43 | |
Holy "Diver!" Priest |
quote: Speed = 1 + (Spell Haste Rating/1570) New Casting Time = 1 / (Speed * (1 / Base Casting Time)) or New casting time = Base Casting Time / Speed or New Casting Time = Base Casting Time / (1 + (Spell Haste Rating/1570)) This may seem counter intuitive at first. Speed is not the same thing as casting time. Speed is a measurement of casts per second, while casting time is seconds per cast. Haste is a multiplier applied to speed, in exactly the same way mounted speed is calculated. That means if one has 10% haste, cast speed is 110%. In order to correctly calculate the new casting time, it must be inverted (giving you the spell's speed), multiplied by the speed percentage, and then inverted again. This figure is the spell's new casting time. Essentially, 1% haste means allows a player to cast 1 additional spell in the time it would normally take to cast 100 spells. If the spell is a 3 second cast, that means one can theoretically cast 101 spells in 300 seconds, or 2.97 seconds per spell. To determine the amount of time taken to cast a given sequence of spells, the reverse formula can be used, where Base Casting Time is the sum of all the spells in the given sequence: Spell Haste Rating = 1570 * ((Base Cast Time / New Cast Time) - 1) Example: I want my Fireball (3s), Fireball (3s), Scorch (1.5s) cast chain to take 6.5 seconds. Therefore, a [1570 * ((7.5 / 6.5) - 1) = ~242 Spell Haste Rating] is required. Also: quote: At level 70, 15.7 (as of 2.2) points of spell haste rating grants 1% spell haste bonus. As of 2.4.0 spell haste also influences spellcasting global cooldown. Now with Roberth I have the Gruul trinket that gives like 300+ spell haste. I notice when it procs, my Flash Heals (1.5 sec) take roughly 1.4 seconds and my Greater Heal (3.5 sec) takes about 3.2 seconds. Its difficult to say exactly how much time it takes to cast due to lag and I'm not using a stopwatch but still, thats what it seems to do fairly consistently. Plus, with the 4 set T4 bonus for healers I hope to see a 2.7 cast time if/when it procs. That's the trick with that trinket. Personally, while the spell haste is nice and in the patch it'll be lowering GC I think at this point its not worth dropping stat bonuses for unless you're reaching hit cap or other markers you have set for yourself. --
Its time to put down the pipe and pick up the PWN!  |
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| Xeonio | #283477 Monday February 18, 2008 at 20:31 | |
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Charter Lead: Relentless |
In terms of healing a minor bit wont hurt you, but its not a stat worth dropping other stats for. Priests have healed fine forever in our current state so making our heals go faster doesn't seem like it helps me that much.
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| Zaddy | #283500 Monday February 18, 2008 at 22:41 | |
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Heal Sauce and Assplosions |
quote: Originally posted by Xeonio: In terms of healing a minor bit wont hurt you, but its not a stat worth dropping other stats for. Priests have healed fine forever in our current state so making our heals go faster doesn't seem like it helps me that much. IMHO, spell haste is largely useless for healing. The amount of time that it saves you in casting, is more a matter of timing. Sure, if you have a lot you'll be able to consistently get your spell off faster. But seriously? It's mostly the opposite of the five second rule. Personally I have enough of an issue with going OOM if I'm spamming my heals. i don't really need spell haste to help it go faster :) --
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| Tribal | #283524 Tuesday February 19, 2008 at 02:01 | |
Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
quote: Originally posted by Zaddy: quote: Originally posted by Xeonio: In terms of healing a minor bit wont hurt you, but its not a stat worth dropping other stats for. Priests have healed fine forever in our current state so making our heals go faster doesn't seem like it helps me that much. IMHO, spell haste is largely useless for healing. The amount of time that it saves you in casting, is more a matter of timing. Sure, if you have a lot you'll be able to consistently get your spell off faster. But seriously? It's mostly the opposite of the five second rule. Personally I have enough of an issue with going OOM if I'm spamming my heals. i don't really need spell haste to help it go faster :) I hate to post off-topic, but I'm going to do it anyway :P While priest healers and paladin healers might find haste less than useful, there is a class that benefits greatly from haste. As a shaman healer you rare RARELY want to cast your "flash heal" spell. The healing-to-mana ratio SUCKS. Talk about going oom... Sadly, our two most powerful spells can be a detriment to raids when the unread shaman heads in wielding these spells. Why? They have *huge* cast times (2.5, typically). My healing was *significantly* improved by getting rid of crit and +healing and replacing them with some haste. I have come close to running out of mana, but I have yet to go OOM in a large raid. Please see DB SSC raids for reference. Also, to answer some question asked about haste itself, you have to realize that haste -- like most bonuses -- is a percentage. My haste rating doesn't reduce my fast healing spell's time by very much when compared to how much it reduces my raise dead spell. Having said that, it affects both spells equally. Another thing to consider, Dae, is that in 2.4, haste will reduce GCD. The GCD is significantly longer for casters (as you know). This can dramatically impact your instant cast spells (gogo affliction locks). I am, alas, using my school stats computer to run a few What Ifs on haste + GCD + Instant cast spells. (Gogo SPSS). Hopefully I'll have enough information to talk intelligently about it sooner than later. :) Right now it's just conjecture. --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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| Kreallana | #283558 Tuesday February 19, 2008 at 09:23 | |
Quantum Kittie Heavenly Healz |
Spell haste is a great thing for those who get to the point where mana consumption is not as large an issue, or where their best spells take hella long to cast. Being able to get your spells completed that much faster is never a bad thing so long as your mana can support it. I certainly would not put it over MP5, but if you can get it and keep your regen at a reasonable level - I certainly think it's worth it. Especially since the "cheaper" spells tend to be longer casts. If you can shave off enough time to make your "cheaper" spells relatively close to your more expensive, but shorter cast spells - it's definitely worth it and pays off in the end, I'd figure. I know I go nuts with how long it takes my holy priest to wind up one of those big spells, sometimes. And I'd sure as hell love to have my priest's GCD shortened when I'm on my shadow priest. It might not seem like a big deal, but when I'm hitting shadow word: pain and the moving on...it's really annoying for my "instant" spell to actually take the entire length of the GCD to "cast". And...well...for Shaman, yeah - haste is a nice bonus just because our bread and butter spell (chain heal) is 2.5 seconds. I start casting that bad boy at the beginning of the fight and spam spam spam until I'm dead or the boss is. *snickers* However, I never run out of mana. Even if I die and pop up, I'm over 50% mana in very short order, and can generally finish the fight a bit above 50% mana on a pop up...if I don't die, I rarely drop under 80% mana unless all hell has broken loose and we've lost a few of our healers. Unlike Demon, I never use Healing Wave unless every single person is too far (and never moving) for a chain to even potentially bounce - and sometimes then, I'll still use my chain instead. Or unless it's an OMG moment and I hit Nature's Swiftness and then Healing Wave. LHW is a 1.5s cast, but is definitely not mana competitive - even with the 2 piece T5 bonus. So getting spell haste certainly helps with that. I'm just grumpy that I don't ever seem to get any spell haste items to drop when I manage to get to ZA, no matter which version of myself I'm there on :-P quote: Originally posted by Dae: So, by 16 rating to 1%, you mean that Mindflay is 1% faster? That's the kind of conversion I'm looking for. I had a general feeling that the haste on the heroic badge gear probably wasn't enough to be much use, and if that is the case then I agree that it isn't. If you get 16 haste rating, Mindflay will be 1% faster - all your spells will be 1% faster - yes. I think it's cool that it will affect GCD, but I really am not placing Haste as a great stat for my shadow priest. More like, just above crit but below hit and damage. Hit > sd > haste > mp5 > int > crit is how I set up - others probably do it differently. For my Holy priest, however, I'm definitely eyeing haste; and, for Ghula - I lust for it. --
Nykka, Kreallana, Krea, Rwnaella - AoC Kreallana, Enheduannah, Talwien, Ghula - WoW Nykka, Kreallana, Rwnaella, Dremmavae - WAR "my defensive skills consist primarily of running and screaming for mercy.", [Michael A. Ventrella, Arch Enemies] |
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| Kreallana edited this message on Tuesday February 19, 2008 at 13:53 | ||
| Roberth | #283759 Tuesday February 19, 2008 at 19:08 | |
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Holy "Diver!" Priest |
Here's a link to some descriptions about Haste in the new items, crafted and dropped. Essentially, the prognosis is for Pallies and Priests, don't get it if your mp5 is gimped out. For Shammies, the answer is "depends" but go for it to speed up your long spells. I think Shammy mana regen is top-notch anyway?
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Its time to put down the pipe and pick up the PWN! |
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| Tribal | #283799 Tuesday February 19, 2008 at 23:07 | |
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Demonwright Tribalsun Tribalmoon |
quote: Originally posted by Roberth: I think Shammy mana regen is top-notch anyway? We have the same chance at higher efficacy as paladins. The recent patch brought us our own "blessing of wisdom" which boosts our mana regen as much as a blessing would. We have a negative counted towards us, however, because shamans don't benefit from spirit-to-healing as priests and druids do and so finding spirit on resto shaman gear doesn't happen. (If I'm not mistake, the same is true for paladins). This makes our mana regen less substantial than those who stack spirit. Having said that, much of the shaman healing gear comes with 1. Mana regen built in and 3. socket space *for* regen gems. In my view, because of this, our mana regen is balanced across all healing classes. YMMV. --
Tribal~ -- "So when you are listening to somebody, completely, attentively, then you are listening not only to the words ... but also to the feeling of what is being conveyed, to the whole of it, not part of it." � Jiddu Krishnamurti |
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