| Guthammer | #274240 Monday December 10, 2007 at 22:46 | |
Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
And excellent read at http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/ Hugely long and detailed. Good details to pick up--assuming a reasonable low latency connection the optimal rotation for warrior abilities is: Revenge, Shield Slam, Devastate, Devastate. (Once the mob is fully sundered and debuffed). Means I should probably rearrange some of my defensive stance buttons. (The horror--they haven't really moved in 18 months...). --
4 70s and counting |
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| brunson | #274248 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 01:15 | |
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Member |
quote: Originally posted by Guthammer: Good details to pick up--assuming a reasonable low latency connection the optimal rotation for warrior abilities is: Revenge, Shield Slam, Devastate, Devastate. (Once the mob is fully sundered and debuffed). That rotation might be the best for Threat per rage, but Shield Slam > Revenge > Devasatte > Devastate is better for Threat per Second. Unless you are severly rage starved, Shield slam should always be your highest priority. |
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| Gamedis | #274259 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 02:55 | |
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Member |
brilliant find!
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Gamedis ----------------------------------- http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silver+Hand&n=Gamedis |
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| Kahlil | #274306 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 11:31 | |
Old Man |
I find my rotation is VERY dependant on the fight; I often open with a Devastate for example on a pull rather than a shield slam so I can Shield Block sooner on any boss that can crush; that's just a random example though, it really depends on the fight. I work on a priority list system rather than a set rotation; rotations can lead to lazy tanking, and an inability to adjust to the situation at hand often. You trust the rotation rather than really knowing how your class and the skills work, which often leads to problems as situations change. (which is the biggest fun for me in tanking, the situations change a LOT. Even the same boss becomes a new encounter as the variables change. Do I have a MD today? Does my dps give me a sec to get agro? What buffs to I have? Did I just dodge/parry/whatever 22 straight attacks? You get the idea.) Rotations are great for an easy way to do a good job, and for someone who's starting they're an excellent idea; they let you get a feel for how things work in general. From there, if you're striving to be truly excellent at your role as a tank, it's learn to adapt time. :) Brunson has my prority list pretty well stated there. Rant about rotations vs priority lists done. :P That being said, that IS a great read; read it a while back and picked up a couple pointers that have helped me out. I heartily recommend it for anyone interested in tanking, and learning how the prot warrior functions. --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| Kahlil edited this message on Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 11:41 | ||
| Guthammer | #274318 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 12:04 | |
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Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
Just to point out Revenge, SS (shield slam), Dev, Dev and SS, R, D, D have the exact same rage cost and TPS. Knowing the baseline for a good rotation is needed--I have no doubt it will improve my performance. I can set my fingers to do a R, SS, D, D rotation while watching what is really going on else where. Also most boss fights--which is really when we need to get down to brass tacks--spend most of their time in macro mode. As an example there is nothing that happens during a well placed Prince fight that would have you changing the basic macro other than refreshing shouts. So you can have 4 of these 6 second rotations before having to change. ((R, SS, D, D)x4 (R, SS, TC, DS))x dead prince. First cycle will be different for sunders. --
4 70s and counting |
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| Kahlil | #274330 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 12:35 | |
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Old Man |
quote: Originally posted by Guthammer: Just to point out Revenge, SS (shield slam), Dev, Dev and SS, R, D, D have the exact same rage cost and TPS. Not really, just due to cooldown timer differences. SS first actually will lead to a small difference in number of SS's per fight vs Revenges, and that's slightly greater tps. (This is assuming no rage issues in the fight, and that you actually SS whenever its up) quote: Originally posted by Guthammer: Knowing the baseline for a good rotation is needed--I have no doubt it will improve my performance. I can set my fingers to do a R, SS, D, D rotation while watching what is really going on else where. Also most boss fights--which is really when we need to get down to brass tacks--spend most of their time in macro mode. As an example there is nothing that happens during a well placed Prince fight that would have you changing the basic macro other than refreshing shouts. So you can have 4 of these 6 second rotations before having to change. ((R, SS, D, D)x4 (R, SS, TC, DS))x dead prince. First cycle will be different for sunders. Well, I don't use macro's (see above reasoning about why I don't like rotations, and apply it to macros). They lock you into a set mode, which leaves you unable to adapt. (example: You SS because that's what your macro does if SS is up and you have the rage. But that leaves you 3 rage short of being able to Shield Block immediately, so you take a crushing and tax healers mana/die. Should have done a Devastate there so you'd have rage for a SB) But even a standard boss fight, like Prince, can change and does. It's actually the cause for my above note about dodge/miss/parry 22 straight attacks; happened to me on Prince a couple weeks back so I had to enter "Super Rage Conservation Mode" until he actually hit me. If I'd been using a macro and SS'd at the wrong time or just spent too much rage, when that period ended I wouldn't have had the rage for a SB and may have taken a crushing blow; which would have probably ended up with my dying just due to the surprise factor of being unhurt that long and then taking a mass of damage in a short time as its REALLY hard for healers to deal with. The non macroing is a personal preference of course, but one that I find works best for me. You're very right about having a good baseline for a rotation being a good thing, and adjusting your ability selection accordingly can and will improve performance. --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| sigsegv | #274337 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 12:50 | |
Veteran of the Psychic Wars |
I agree Kor... macros are a lifesaver for "what's the ts connection info again?" and "/e sneezes on %t" but less so for deciding what to do in combat, ymmv. On the other hand there is no denying that I am slightly slower at certain things than someone who macro'd up. /shrug --
One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is constantly making exciting discoveries. |
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| Kahlil | #274338 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 12:53 | |
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Old Man |
Btw, my favourite quote from that guide: "if you are a tanking warrior, sit in an ergonomic position so that you do not develop carpel tunnel syndrome due to button spamming." --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| Catteeka | #274339 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 13:05 | |
Okay. |
Don't forget that devastate now receives the innate threat from sunder (301) in addition to its own until 5 are up, which makes it better to use than revenge until that point assuming the rage is available. Been reading over the guide...it's kind of interesting they don't mention the Darkmoon Card: Vengeance at all, even though I think it's one of the best tank trinkets in the game and is relatively easy (albeit relatively expensive) to get. --
Former ST:RQ Warrior Lead Guild Master of Harum Scarum  |
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| Catteeka edited this message on Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 13:37 | ||
| Guthammer | #274354 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 14:24 | |
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Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
I haven't had the pleasure of 22 straight miss fight, but I certainly agree with your reasoning on macros--I wouldn't want to be locked in either. Nor would I want to fire all the tippy birds for the extra keys. BTW assuming a 50% parry/dodge/miss you hit a 1 in 4,000,000 streak. --
4 70s and counting |
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| Kahlil | #274360 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 15:04 | |
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Old Man |
I did the math, because it keeps me from actually working. Assuming 50% mitigation, it's about 1 in 4,000,000 as was stated. However, Kor currently has 63.1% total avoidance (dodge + parry + boss base miss chance + defence adjustment on miss chance) vs a level 73 boss, so that's a 1 in 25081 chance, significantly better. Pop the pocket watch(15.9%), and for 10 seconds avoidance is up to 79%. So assuming you get 22 attacks in that time (which is probably a bit high given attack rates on Prince even when hitting faster during phase 2 (60%-30%), unless he's doing a ton of parries) but for academic purposes it drops to 1 in 178. However, that's without any debuffs on him that increase his miss chance. If you factor in the hunters Serpent Sting (5%) and a Balance Druid's Insect Swarm(2%), that's another 7% avoidance, and the numbers become: Base: (70.1% avoidance) 1 in 2478 Trinket: (86% avoidance) 1 in 27 Wee, fun with numbers! :P I can't recall exactly, but the trinket may have been popped for part of that streak; it started shortly after the 60% mark and I usually pop trinkets at around that time to help with healer mana. As well, a hunter and a balance druid were present during the raid, though I'm not sure if the bebuffs were on or not. In general practice, Yarr, very rare, but the more mitigation you get the more streaky your avoidance can get; and once you start calculating things like 'hitting 1 in X attacks' probabilities, it hurts my brain. :P --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| 7_of_9 | #274361 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 15:10 | |
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\/\/4rl0ck 4 l1ph3 |
I was in a recent 25 man raid fight where our MT dodged or was missed for about the first 15-20 seconds of the fight and he ended up being rage starved like hell since his health literally didn't move, was a freak chance, but they do happen somewhat often (I've had the same sort of thing happen to myself on bosses as well).
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Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni! Clamo, clamatis, omnes clamamus pro glace lactis |
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| Guthammer | #274366 Tuesday December 11, 2007 at 15:25 | |
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Shadowguarde Sunder Monkey |
And will happen more often as we gear up.
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4 70s and counting |
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| Toshiero | #285744 Monday March 3, 2008 at 14:47 | |
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Member |
I can tell you right now I have read that guide many, many times. I have found I run devistate till revenge or SS is ready. In between I am spamming HS and I have never had issues holding agro. | |
| Alinna | #285808 Monday March 3, 2008 at 18:18 | |
Scout |
Generally, I open with a shield slam, mostly because other people sometimes like to open with pyroblast the instant it gets into melee with me. Now on a slightly different note, how much hit rating does everyone else use? Personally, I've got very little for Volerly, and I really notice that I end up missing too much. Problem is, I have difficulty keeping my stamina up to acceptable levels, let alone worrying about yet another stat I need to boost. What sort of fix does everyone else use for that? --
 Signature image and avatar both done by Khaira. Thanks Khaira! |
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| Alinna edited this message on Monday March 3, 2008 at 19:51 | ||