| Kahlil | » #152220 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 00:02 | |
Old Man |
I'm going to make this as brief as possible. I'm on vacation after all.  Earlier this evening, I discovered that Silence used our instance earlier this week, in an exploit known as instance cascading, in order to defeat Ragnaros an additional time this week. Upon discovering this, I was quite upset, because in order for them to do this a member of LO, who is saved into our instance, must have knowingly gone along with it and allowed them access, using a known exploit, to our instance. So I logged off, got my cool, and logged on to tell the leads what had occured, and not surprisingly a heated discussion started up immediately in LOCommand. We also immediately opened up a GM Ticket in order to inform Blizzard of what had happened, and to confirm their exact stance on the matter. Blizzard, as was relayed to us by the member in contact with them directly,is adamantly opposed to this activity, not surprisingly, and wanted to know as much as we knew about what had happened. During our discussion in LOCommand, we had also learned the unfortunate truth that it was not just a member of LO, but one of our founding members, and leads, Alrix, that had given Silence access to our instance in this manner, that being a known exploit and one that Blizzard is heavily opposed to. So we immediately informed Blizzard of what we knew, and proceeded to have an intense discussion in command, talking amongst ourselves and with Alrix after, and upon immense discussion we have asked that Alrix no longer raid with us. His actions, using a known exploit in this manner, we feel is a betrayal of trust against all of us, and could well have harmed us all. That being said, there are some more layers to this that we are still dealing with. Alrix did not do this for personal gain, but for another, and that matters a great deal. And we know he did not mean to harm us in any way, it was his actions that were wrong, not his motivations. And this is a manner that we are discussing, and will discuss at great lengths. And there was another member of LO involved in a periferal manner that we are dealing with internally as well. So this is by no means closed. We are as always open to and want to hear other opinions on this. And we all have our own as well. But this is the way things stand at the moment, and we thought everyone should know what happened, in as open a manner as possible under the circumstances. It sucks. In many ways, but we are all great people, and we shall no doubt make it through this one, with many a boss to kill, and many a trash mob to doom-er-ise. Be well, my friends, and don't let this get you down. Shift happens after all, and this is a game everyone here is trying to enjoy, so allow yourselves to continue to enjoy it. ^_^ (Listos version: Be well, or I beat you.) --
Korinth, Dwarven Tnak / Angry Blender Tulir, HealaTRON Kahlil, Jumping Mage (Caster Lead v1.0, Lead Emeritus, BR Tank Lead Emeritus, Easterners Charter Lead, Evil Tyrant) "It is well to give when asked but it is better to give unasked, through understanding." - Kahlil Gibran |
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| Sarline | » #152221 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 00:43 | |
Member |
Ok I am in no way representing silence on this but I will tell you a different view. Firstly the cascading thing is a matter of opinion, and it was checked with several GMS first to see if it was an exploit or not. We were informed that it is not. (ari took screenies of the conversation). Personally I was against it but I am but one officer in 12. (since it was done we STILL have conflicting reports from 4 gms that 2 say it IS an exploit and 2 say it is not). Secondly, whilst it is up to you guys - I would not kick Alrix for this. He did nothing to harm your raid other than a little confusion at the login to MC, there is no way on porting to MC and seeing you guys that we were going to "steal your instance" as some people suggested. When Silence killed Ragnaros - once again which was ok'd by a GM was after there will be no more attempts by you guys. So in reality - whilst he definitly should have told you and worked it out, he did nothing that harmed your raid, used a bug/exploit call it what you will that was ok'd by SEVERAL GMs. Given the amount of time and effort he put into your raids this IMO at least should speak for a lot more than this issue. In anycase the gist is a bunch of you reported us, - which is a little dissapointing that you didnt contact an officer in silence first to discuss it and a FIFTH GM contacted us and said basically do not do it (then a 6th gm came online and answered a previous silence member query and said it wasnt an exploit!). Anyways - Best of luck with MC/BWL. Just thought I would add my little bit as I have a number of friends in LO, and it saddened me a little when I heard alrix was booted for this. Sarline |
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| Tsukiko | » #152222 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 01:54 | |
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Member |
I would not profess to know any of the workings of the Blizzard GM side of things, but I can only imagine that the fact that this was done 'on the sly' would speak volumes to why many were upset. I've never understood the choice of 'hidden' over 'transparent', by those who feel they are doing the right thing. Regardless, It sounds like the 'exploit' nature of this is a little moot. Tsuki |
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| Xenira | » #152223 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 02:05 | |
Member |
Anyone who's ever had a GM claim to be unable to do anything to help with an unlootable raid boss knows this: The GMs have their heads firmly and deeply planted up their asses. Instance cascading is an exploit, pure and simple. Stealing the instance of another group, be it an open group like ours or a rival guild, is absolutely deplorable. I'm continually astounded by the lows to which Silence will sink. I'm upset to know this happened. |
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| Sarline | » #152224 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 02:32 | |
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Member |
1) we were OFFERED the instance AFAIK. so dont claim we stole your instance - we stole nothing at all. Once again how did silence killing your ragnaros detract from your game play? 2) Show me the blizzard statement that says it is an exploit. Personally I wouldnt do it (and actually stated to silence I would take no part in it) BUT people have asked the question for WEEKS begging for a blue response and as yet none has been given. 3) I dont know the arrangement but when one of your LEADERS offers the instance, how are we to know it is "on the sly" or "hidden". Sure we have heard of other guilds cascading instances, and we asked GMS whether it was an exploit - and were told it is not. Silence always had a SINGLE raid timer in the instance and never used an exploit to shorten it. No offense but if your pre-disposed to hating silence thats one thing but look at it from different angles before u claim we "steal your instance" or claim we "sink to lows" |
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| Alrix | » #152225 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 02:37 | |
Member |
Umm, what? |
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| Alrix | » #152226 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 02:48 | |
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Member |
Let me rephrase. Aznamir came up to ME, on Tuesday night, and had asked me if we killed Ragnaros yet, I said no. He asked me if we were going to try again for the rest of the instance, I said no. And it went on from there, with HIM asking ME if you guys could use the instance with the hour an a half left on it. I in NO WAY WHATSOEVER "offered" it to you. |
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| Sarline | » #152227 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 02:56 | |
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Member |
Ok my bad - hence the AFAIK (as far as I know) bit. Nevertheless, the fact that it was a leader of the LO raid that ok'd it, noone can claim it was done secretly or on the sly. | |
| Marenka | » #152228 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 03:03 | |
Magical Girl |
He didn't let anyone else in the LO know, however. So yeah, it was done ' in secret ' away from the main body of the LO. Gingerale. |
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| Alrix | » #152229 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 03:45 | |
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Member |
I saw it as feeding table scraps to a dog. Were we going to finish those leftovers (no pun intended, at all)? No, we weren't, we were going to leave them in the fridge to rot and throw them away. Then there's the little pooch who would glady accept something that we weren't going to finish. Doesn't affect us in the least, and the dog now as some food in his tummy. Happy dog, and the people at the dinner table don't even mind. And no, I didn't tell anyone, because I thought the instance was just going to reset like it was suppost to, and nothing like this would have happened. Obviously, I was wrong, and not knowing anything about the ins and outs of raid instance IDs and the such didn't help to much either. Now, as far as I hear, a whole bunch of crazy shit is happening, and yeah, go ahead, blame me. It's my fault. IF I would have talked to someone who would have talked me out of it, we'd both be raiding our instances like any normal old weekend. But I didn't, because I am an idiot. And to everyone who's hopes for a nice raiding weekend were messed up by this - I'm sorry. I'm sorry, everyone. If you want me to do that whole dramactic delete my character and make a level 1 alt with the same name on the opposite faction and post it on the Silver Hand forums in some sort of goodbye thread, go ahead and say so. Le sigh. I regret all of this. I just want things to be going the way they are normally. But for some reason, god decided that Alrix needs to do something utterly stupid and make everyone pissed and want him to die by methods of tractor trailor. But, believe it or not, i'm human, and I make mistakes, just like you all have at least once in your lifetimes. And my honest feelings are, that yes, I fucked up, and I fucked up bad. And yes, i'm upset that i'm not going to be allowed back into raids. And even after all i've done, and how long i've been here, pushing to make this work, the leads all gave me the "stfu asshole". But just because you guys are slamming the door in my face doesn't mean i'm going to join Silence, TRS, or Afterlight. I love all you LOs. Even Tygranaric. <3 Tygranaric. And no, I don't want to leave. But if one little fuckup is going to kill me forever, then eh. Just remember that this is just a game, we are all people who all have feelings, behind the screen we sit behind for a large portion of our lives. And we all make mistakes. How would any of you feel right now if you were me? Yeah, like the shittiest kind of shit, and hoping there are more awesome people telling you that they understand, and they are there for you, making you feel that much better.  Okay, that's it. I'm going to now watch this topic, and if it gets filled with "Burn him at the stake!!" replies, then this is the last time most of you will be hearing from me. Or if it's the other way around, then it won't be. So here's either a "Goodbye, everyone!" or a "Guys, I love you, thanks for understanding and letting me stay, I will come to each and every one of your homes and give you flowers and candy" message. /regret |
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| sefoniel | » #152230 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 04:30 | |
Arch Druid (at least according to BA!) |
If it was for what I've heard it was for, I forgive you and moreover, applaud it.
--
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| Saroneth_Blannor | » #152231 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 06:00 | |
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Member |
i think alot the alrix bashing is just transfered silence bashing, if ya hada given it to TRS/AL folks wouldnt be 1/2 as pissed with you for my own part id like ta give you a good kick in the junk but thats about where it would end. |
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| Tsukiko | » #152232 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 06:27 | |
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Member |
Alrix, if the raiding body knew why you did this, perhaps they would be on your side, perhaps not. We have heard it was for someone else, which sounds very selfless, but we are unable to make any determinations based upon your intentions. The one true failing I see is that you did it on the sly, knowing -somewhere in your heart- it was wrong. I have no idea what the leads are saying to you, but I would hazzard that many of us might have done the same thing to help another. So to Alrix, I can see your repentance, I know you're sorry, you truly wish you could have those moments back. The general raid public, outside the lead chat, is unequipped to make any decisions for themselves. So, while I feel your pain, I can offer little in the way of insight into what happened. As to Sarlene, I have never seen a more defensive post given to a more benign statement. It was done on the sly. Alrix did not talk to the raid leadership about what was happening, and Silence didn't come on the boards asking if they could take Ragnaros. It was done one person to one person, hence my comment. If everyone involved felt it was 100% OK, they would be very open about it; dropped a thank you on the forums, sent a few tells "hey thanks", etc. They did not. I have no official "LO" lead status, I'm simply trying to express how this looked to an occaisional raider. Tsuki edit: so, Kahlil, i would suggest if you are soliciting for some sort of feedback, perhaps you could be open as to the -why-, it's got a lot of us scratching our head. |
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| Jhaerith | » #152233 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 07:24 | |
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Member |
And what was that, if I might ask? |
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| Nightstar | » #152234 Saturday July 30, 2005 at 07:43 | |
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Omfg the noob has a sword, run for the hills! |
Alrix, i will never hold this over your head for you did it for the right reasons. Shit went down, people became pissed over an instance that was going to reset and we weren't going to finish. You may have used an exploit, but you did it for the right reason. And don't you other people quote any of my shit cause ..|. Talk to me in game noobrix. |
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